Antietam gives up a tasty treat UPDATED Dentist opinion

[tymcmurray]

Civilman1 and I hit a section near Antietam that I had never been to before. Civilman got 4 bullets from the area last week. My Whites 6000 was down for the count so I used my Tesoro and dug EVERY hit. I came away with my first honest to goodness civil war bullet, but it wasn't what I expected. The bullet was a chewed bullet wit definite human teeth marks all over it. You can see the opening of the bullet was pinched shut.

After a 5+ hour hunt, we decided to go over to our Williamsport site. There I got another first. My very first artillery fragment. What a rush to see that big ole piece of iron come out of the dirt. First thing I did, once I realized I wasn't seeing things, was look for civilman to share the excitement. Then we opened a couple of cold ones and celebrated a little before hitting it again.

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

SWR, these lead bullets are VERY SOFT, it is very easy to leave bite marks in them. And in many cases, more than one person DID use the same bullet to bite down on. This isn't conjecture, it is a KNOWN fact. As far as human vs. feral hogs, this is true but there were FAR more soldiers and bullets in the area of Antietam vs hogs and bullets. Your are talking over 100,000 men engaged plus reserves. Being that this was found on one of the BLOODIEST battlefields of the Civil War, I have no doubt in my mind that they are human teeth marks. Besides, you can easily see the size of the teethmarks. I am sure that the occasional Hog may have sometime in the past, wondered up on a Civil War bullet but it is FAR more likely to find the ones that have been chewed by soldiers.

I am a reenactor and I will post a picture if you would like of me "putting" teethmarks into lead. It is very soft. I dont recommend that ANY one do this BUT to lay this thing to rest, I would gladly show you guys that it is VERY easy to leave teeth marks in these old lead bullets. You can go on relic sites on the net and buy them by the bags full.

 

[piggman1]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Those are some nice finds. I won't argue the point of human or hog, but there were many cases,especally the battle you were hunting, where the bodies would be eaten by hogs before they could be disposed of properly. Either way, those are some nice finds.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

There are lots of these bullets available. I bought several "medicine bullets" from an antique shop that had a 5# candy jar full of them. They is even the myth that they were found in piles and that this indicated the location of a field hospital. As far as it being a KNOWN fact, I have never seen a reference that indicated a match between the teeth marks in "Medicine" bullets and the teeth of a human. All the ones that are done by experts (dentists, etc.) attribute the bites to animals.

As far as being able to bite a bullet. Sure you can, but any of the Civil War bullets examined by a dentist have come back as being chewed on by an animal not a human. You have to understand the nature of how feral hogs feed to understand how so many could be out there. They root for food and will chew ANYTHING they pick up to see if they can eat it. A lead bullet in the mouth is just like an acorn to a feral hog. After the civil war, there were plenty bullets and plenty of feral hogs. Bullet + Hog = chewed bullet. Rain, running water, plus gravity equals accumulation of chewed bullets. Just the way things are.

Daryl

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

So you are saying that you dont believe that ANY of the minieballs were chewed on by humans That they were ALL chewed up by Hogs We will have to agree to disagree than. I have been in the Civil War field for far too long and it is almost common knowledge with everyone who studies and reenacts the Civil War that soldiers widdled and chewed on the bullets. I do not disagree that hogs chew on them but it is VERY easy for people to chew on them as well and they were used in hospitals to bite down on during the war. That much we do know. SO, you and I... We will just have to agree to disagree and "bite the bullet on this one."

P.S. Here is a pic of me chewing a minie and the aftermath. This here is proof that it CAN and WAS done Dont WORRY folks, I am not going to drop over dead It really isnt that dangerous.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

I guess we will have to disagree on this one. Just one question though - How do you KNOW that the bullets were used in fields hospitals when they had anesthesia and how do you KNOW they were bitten by humans. I have never seen a reliable reference that says that. If you could send me the link to one, I would love to read it.

Thanks,

Daryl

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Here's a good reference:

Contrary to popular belief there was anesthesia for soldiers during the war. The surgeons would apply a cloth soaked in chloroform. The surgeons knew enough to remove the rag often so that the patient would not get chloroform poisoning. There were few operations that the surgeon did not use anesthesia in. A patient only having a bullet to bite was basically a myth.


http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7899/medicine.html

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Bio Professor, us Southerners didnt have anethesia at the end...In addition, when we did, we ONLY saved it for the worst of the worst. Therefore bullets were used to bite down on......I just PROVED above that you DO NOT need Hog Jawls to crush a soft lead minie ball.

 

[romeo-1]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

So you are saying that you dont believe that ANY of the minieballs were chewed on by humans That they were ALL chewed up by Hogs We will have to agree to disagree than. I have been in the Civil War field for far too long and it is almost common knowledge with everyone who studies and reenacts the Civil War that soldiers widdled and chewed on the bullets. I do not disagree that hogs chew on them but it is VERY easy for people to chew on them as well and they were used in hospitals to bite down on during the war. That much we do know. SO, you and I... We will just have to agree to disagree and "bite the bullet on this one."

P.S. Here is a pic of me chewing a minie and the aftermath. This here is proof that it CAN and WAS done

ummm...dude...lead poisoning!

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Actually, the South did have anesthesia:

Myth 2: Surgery Was Done without Anaesthesia
Histories of the Civil War and Hollywood movies usually portray surgery being done without anaesthesia; the patient downs a shot of whiskey, then bites down on a bullet. That did happen in a few instances, particularly on September 17, 1862, at the Battle of Iuka, Mississippi, when 254 casualties were operated on without any anesthetic. This episode is recorded in the Medical and Surgical History of the War of the Rebellion and is the only known occurrence of any significant number of operations being performed without anaesthesia. On the other hand, more than 80,000 Federal operations with anaesthesia were recorded, and that figure is believed to be an underestimate. Confederate surgeons used anesthetics a comparable number of times.

http://www.braceface.com/medical/Articles/Civil_War_surgery_truth.htm

I'm confused about what you "PROVED." Yes, bullets can be bitten but that has no bearing on their use during surgery. Myths die hard. And usually slowly.

Daryl

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Had to be done, was proving a point. Besides, it had a nice patina on it that coated the lead! :P I think the World is alittle to FEARFUL of everything today. I will be fine

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Compare the depth of the bite of yours to the one at the beginning of the thread. No comparison. Human jaws and teeth just can't exert that much force.

Daryl

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

YES INDEED Bio Professor, if you see, I did notsay that we DID NOT have anethesia but that in the end we were in short supply and that MANY doctors throughout the different Confederate Armies in the field were WITHOUT ether. I have a good buddy named John Peliterre who has been studying surgery during the War and plays a Confederate surgeon in most reenactments. We used ETHER mostly as our anethesia. YES BUT it ran out as the Federals strangled the South. Go to any reenactment at Chimbarazoo Confederate Hospital in Richmond, VA and you can talk to them and will INDEED see that they use minies to bite on. In addition, as said, when we reenact, many of the boys who arent afraid,will bite on them. Now I usually don't, but did above to prove that it can and was done. Now it is such a small and obscure point about the war that it isnt documented to often but nevertheless was and is still done with the reenactors.

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Here's an article by a surgeon:

My reviews of the medical writings of the time show that our predecessors were no fools. Of course, they located and tied off the blood vessels; of course, they tried to create a flap that would be useful in fitting a prosthesis. And biting on a bullet? Hardly. In both the north and south, ether and chloroform were widely used, with minimal mortality from the anesthesia itself. Chloroform was favored for night-time surgery, since ether and lighted candles do not mix well.

The Journal of a Civil War Surgeon

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/460493

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Actually Ether was available to Southern surgeons in much more abundance than was chloroform. Bio Professor as SAID, nothing will change your mind obviously even in the face of picture evidence and nothing will change mine. Men did chew on the bullets. And no I REVERE and HAVE MORE HONOR FOR THOSE MEN THAN MOST LIVING TODAY. I am a direct descendant of 7 Confederate Officers and an officer myself in the Sons of Confederate Veterans and have been reenacting for 15 years. The common soldiers got bored, even though the did use them in medical situations, lets leave the medical side out for a minute....the soldiers just got bored, they didnt know that lead was bad for you....they chewed on the bullets. It is as easy as that. That is the last thing I am going to say. Good day to you sir.

 

[haboo]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Before the advent of ether, the first anesthetic, surgery was a pretty desperate and painful affair. With the patient (although victim might be more descriptive) fully conscious and feeling the pain. These early surgeries were typically limb amputations or the removal of some object lodged into the body such as a bullet or arrowhead.

A typical amputation consisted of the "surgeon" using a saw to hack off the unwanted limb. The skin was then pulled down over the stub and sutured shut. Amazingly, some of these patients survived, but certainly the success ratio was low. Note that poorly skilled physicians today are called "hacks".

Even after the advent of anesthetics such emergency surgery has had to be performed at times. Particularly in times of war when anesthetics may be in limited supply or unavailable.

To ease the pain the patient was given a couple of stiff belts of whiskey to numb the senses, then given a stick or lead bullet to bite down on as the surgeon went to work with knife and saw.

The bullet or stick was given to let the patient focus their energy and attention on the biting instead of the cutting and pain. It may also have helped to reduce the screaming, which probably benefited the surgeon and attendants.

Why bite on a bullet? Made of lead, bullets are malleable. Although quite strong they will actually deform somewhat when bitten hard. Hence teeth would not break as would likely happen from biting a stone for example. Bullets are also readily available in times of war, when this type of surgery is frequently called for. "Bite the bullet" may have originated in the civil war.

The patient who bit the bullet was cooperating with the surgery. Clearly this poor fellow saw the surgery as unavoidable and absolutely necessary. He had decided to "bite the bullet" and get on with the surgery.

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

That is exactly right on point

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Haboo, do you have the reference for your post. I have read something similar and it was from a reinactors article not anything scientific.

As I said in the thread, I, and most people who study this, do think that soldiers chewed on bullets. They stimulate saliva, they occupy the mouth, etc. I have never seen much that would contradict this. I also think that some of the marks on some bullets are the result of humans using them as "hard candy" - really hard candy. The issue is whether the deep bite marks are the result of humans or animals. All the test with human musculature, tooth structure, etc. indicate humans are not capable of the very deep and very defined bite marks found in bullets attributed to surgery without anesthesia.

Did soldiers chew on bullets? Definitely. Did they use bullets to bite on during surgery without anesthesia? No evidence to support it.

Daryl

 

[BioProfessor]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Man, this myth is tough to get rid of.

Daryl

 

[haboo]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

"Bite the bullet" may have originated in the civil war.

Your source was quoted from a message board post. Got anything a little more creditable?

Yes it is a quote. Here is another.
To bite the bullet is 1700s military slang, from old medical custom of having the patient bite a bullet during an operation to divert attention from pain and reduce screaming.

 

[{Sentinel}]

Re: Antietam gives up a tasty treat

Well that is all I have to say, I know that the soldiers chewed on them and it was a very easy and practical thing to grab a bullet and bite down on it....I have seen it for years in reenacting, and I cannot think one would think that it is a given soldiers chewed on bullets, but just NOT in the HOSPITAL tent. I have a Masters in History but I would be more than glad to get someone else to tell you the same about biting the minies. Well that is all, Good Evening Gentlemen, I have to take my lady to dinner know. Have a nice evening.