Any info on this buckle would be appreciated :)

[townsend1972]

My husband found this buckle from the civil war period while metal detecting. We are looking for anyone who might have some information about this type of buckle? Thanks in advance!

LeeAnn and Waylon Townsend

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Broken knee]

Welcome to TNet, To me it looks like it's civilian not mil. I looked for a match and nada.?HH
Broken Knee

 

[townsend1972]

We did have Dr Keith Holland (He found the Maple Leaf Civil War ship in the St. John's River) look at the buckle...he said that he thought it "might" be pre- civil war. It is made of bronze. We are just hoping someone might have a little more info on it or be able to ID it.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Hmmm ... 13 Star Flag. This should prove interesting.

SBB

 

[ipsilateral]

The flowers on the wreath appear to be Dogwoods.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I realize the buckle below is not identical, but thought it might be similar enough to use as a gauge to approximately date the one in question. It is described as follows ...

CHILD'S CIVIL WAR ERA BLACK VELVET BELT ~ Circa 1865

"Having a brass buckle adorned with American flag and velvet belt is decorated with civil war era brass buttons."

~ * ~

Because of the angle the buckle is laying, it appears to be oval shaped. But I honestly think it's round.

I'm not a button expert, but maybe someone will recognize the ones on the belt and be able to confirm whether they are Civil War era or not. All I have to go on is the description.

SBB

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

The belt contains several buttons which absolutely did not exist during the American civil War. A prominent one is the "beehive" button, representing the US state of Utah, which became a state in 1896. (See button number UT-1 in the button-book by Alpheaus H. Albert ...and note that the Utah Seal buttons have very-postwar backmarks.)

Such "Civilian-Patriotic" belts (and related buckles) date from the latter-1800s to early-1900s. Sorry to disappoint anybody, but they're definitely from quite a few years after the Civil War era.

 

[IronSpike]

The belt contains several buttons which absolutely did not exist during the American civil War. A prominent one is the "beehive" button, representing the US state of Utah, which became a state in 1896. (See button number UT-1 in the button-book by Alpheaus H. Albert ...and note that the Utah Seal buttons have very-postwar backmarks.)

Such "Civilian-Patriotic" belts (and related buckles) date from the latter-1800s to early-1900s. Sorry to disappoint anybody, but they're definitely from quite a few years after the Civil War era.

I would green check on that, good call TCG

Welcome to Tnet Townsend The buckle is a great find

 

[ipsilateral]

All that being said, heck of a nice looking buckle!!

 

[kuger]

..................that type of attachment is "post",war as well

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Based on TheCannonballGuy's expertise on the subject, I too am convinced the buckle in question is post civil war. The only reason I am posting the following pictures is because I was curious about the clasp on the back. So I got to looking around to see if I could find a "similar" one. Of the dozens of buckles I found, the one shown here is the only one I could find that had a similar looking clasp. Plus, it's dated 1907. So if the clasp is any indication of age, this might help. Of course, this type of clasp could have been available years earlier. But if it was, I could not find an example of one. The most distinguishing feature about this particular clasp is the "flat" attaching bar. Most, if not all of the earlier ones have a "round" attaching bar.

SBB

[ Confederate Veterans Belt Buckle ~ Richmond 1907 ~ UCV ]

 

[kuger]

Based on TheCannonballGuy's expertise on the subject, I too am convinced the buckle in question is post civil war. The only reason I am posting the following pictures is because I was curious about the clasp on the back. So I got to looking around to see if I could find a "similar" one. Of the dozens of buckles I found, the one shown here is the only one I could find that had a similar looking clasp. Plus, it's dated 1907. So if the clasp is any indication of age, this might help. Of course, this type of clasp could have been available years earlier. But if it was, I could not find an example of one. The most distinguishing feature about this particular clasp is the "flat" attaching bar. Most, if not all of the earlier ones have a "round" attaching bar.

SBB

[ Confederate Veterans Belt Buckle ~ Richmond 1907 ~ UCV ]

LOL!Saved ya all the time reading my reply,but thanks for the confirmation

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

kuger ~

I didn't mean not to acknowledge your comment, as I'm sure you know your stuff. But rather I was just trying to narrow down when that type of clasp might have been introduced. "Post War" could be anytime between 1866 and 2011. (Lol).

Anyway ...

This will conclude my participation in this thread, and is primarily for those who are wondering what I meant by "round-bar" attachment vs "flat-bar" attachment. You've already seen the flat-bar example, so here is a round-bar example, which is seen on the left-hand side of the buckle. About 75% of the pre-1900 (non civil war) belt buckles I've seen on the internet have clasp that look like this one. I still have not seen a flat-bar example any earlier than the 1907 I posted.

SBB

 

[ipsilateral]

That's pretty interesting. So, does it work the other way? Did they more or less stop using the round or wire types of fixtures post-war?

Nate

 

[townsend1972]

Thanks for the info

 

[townsend1972]

I was able to get some info from John Sexton about our buckle. I thought I would share what we learned with everyone.

"Your buckle is indeed most likely pre-Civil War or early war as you were told. Sash buckles were popular in antebellum America and Europe. Similar buckles are often seen in photographs worn by men and weapon in various designs and toe of attachments. Most have soldered or riveted loop and eye attachment such as yours though other examples are tongue and wreath. The manufacture of these buckles seem to date circa 1840-1890 based on excavated examples and when seen in vintage photography. These buckles are typically of light manufacture not being needed to support a lot of weight. There are decorative types with many designs including advertising, Greco-Roman motifs, Rococo, Floral, and patriotic designs like yours. The placement of a patriotic device inside a wreath is typically seen in Civil War era military or patriotic insignia. We can date yours based of the design of the stars in the canton of the flag. 13 star flags have been used on US naval vessels by regulation from the mid 19th century. The 4-5-4 arrangement of stars was regulation after the Mexican War in the 1850s up till 1862 when regulations changed to make the canton display 13 stars arranged in a horizontal arrangement of 3-2-3-2-3. So we know this buckle with 4-5-4 dates in about mid 1850s to 1862 most likely. Sash buckles have limited value on the Civil War market other than solid gold patriotic ones made from California gold during the Civil War, these solid gold examples are found priced in the market for $1000 or more. Nice excavated examples of numerous designs can be found priced around $100-300 at trade shows and some are unique survivors like yours......js"

John Sexton
CivilWarDealer.com

 

[kuger]

I was able to get some info from John Sexton about our buckle. I thought I would share what we learned with everyone.

"Your buckle is indeed most likely pre-Civil War or early war as you were told. Sash buckles were popular in antebellum America and Europe. Similar buckles are often seen in photographs worn by men and weapon in various designs and toe of attachments. Most have soldered or riveted loop and eye attachment such as yours though other examples are tongue and wreath. The manufacture of these buckles seem to date circa 1840-1890 based on excavated examples and when seen in vintage photography. These buckles are typically of light manufacture not being needed to support a lot of weight. There are decorative types with many designs including advertising, Greco-Roman motifs, Rococo, Floral, and patriotic designs like yours. The placement of a patriotic device inside a wreath is typically seen in Civil War era military or patriotic insignia. We can date yours based of the design of the stars in the canton of the flag. 13 star flags have been used on US naval vessels by regulation from the mid 19th century. The 4-5-4 arrangement of stars was regulation after the Mexican War in the 1850s up till 1862 when regulations changed to make the canton display 13 stars arranged in a horizontal arrangement of 3-2-3-2-3. So we know this buckle with 4-5-4 dates in about mid 1850s to 1862 most likely. Sash buckles have limited value on the Civil War market other than solid gold patriotic ones made from California gold during the Civil War, these solid gold examples are found priced in the market for $1000 or more. Nice excavated examples of numerous designs can be found priced around $100-300 at trade shows and some are unique survivors like yours......js"

John Sexton
CivilWarDealer.com

Thanks for sharing ....but I do not agree...at all

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I see the green check mark, and will let it go at that. But first I would like to add that I am not entirely convinced either about the type of "buckle" it is, or the age of it. The star count John Sexton refers to makes since, but it's comments of his like ...

"Similar buckles are often seen in photographs worn by men and weapon in various designs and toe of attachments."

... that confuses me. He suggest they are common. But if they are so common, then why can't we find a single example of one? I have looked at dozens upon dozens of old photographs, and perhaps hundreds of various types of buckles and pins, but other than the one I posted a picture of earlier, I have not seen another one that even comes close!

But thanks for sharing anyway. I will consider this solved unless townsend1972 changes his mind and says otherwise.

SBB

P.S. ~ I say ... "One picture is worth a thousand words!"

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

After reading the thread, it appears the flag is indeed pre-Civil War,
but it appears most of our members disagree.
Are y'all saying its a post CW buckle with an older flag?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/artimovich/sets/72157621750323370/detail/

http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/HistoryTechnology/pdf_lo/SSHT-0021.pdf

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont know buckles but is this considered a similar back? Its TOC post CW.

http://www.andersonmilitaria.com/Web_Pages/belts_buckles/beltsbuckles.htm