Any info on this buckle would be appreciated :)

[townsend1972]

My husband found this buckle from the civil war period while metal detecting. We are looking for anyone who might have some information about this type of buckle? Thanks in advance!

LeeAnn and Waylon Townsend

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Remember the Joe Lipsius flag buckle? ...same stars, the attachment looks the same.
(The catch was attached, but bent, when the buckle was found. It broke off in a straightening attempt).
Pre CW? http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,211186.0.html

 

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[kuger]

Well Big Cy,I am never one to not admit when I am wrong and maybe I am on this one?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The Joe Lipsius buckle has estimations from 1830-40 militia to a 20th century civilian patriotic plate.


Im leaning toward pre CW because of the flag.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

No disrespect to Mr. Sexton. I'm sure he's a fine individual and an experienced dealer. But anytime I see so called experts use terms such as "most likely," it automatically leads me to believe their opinions are actually "educated guesses." This doesn't mean Mr. Sexton is wrong, as he could very well be right. I really don't know! But in my opinion, the buckle is either pre civil war or it isn't! There shouldn't be any maybes or two ways about it. A true, uniquivical, 100% bona fide expert in this field would know without guessing. He would also be able to tell us "everything" there is to know about the buckle. And possibly even explain to us why we can't find a single example of an identical one? Educated guesses are, in my humble opinion, not "Proof."

But since this thread is green checked and the original poster is happy with that, then I "guess" that's that!

SBB

P.S. ~ I'd love to do some more searching on this one ... but not until the green check is lifted.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sometimes we cant find an exact example. The Joe Lipsius buckle I posted is about as close to an exact match as possible of the attachment. Maybe some more examples will surface.

The big question is- Can we date the buckle by the stars on the flag?

" We can date yours based of the design of the stars in the canton of the flag. 13 star flags have been used on US naval vessels by regulation from the mid 19th century. The 4-5-4 arrangement of stars was regulation after the Mexican War in the 1850s up till 1862 when regulations changed to make the canton display 13 stars arranged in a horizontal arrangement of 3-2-3-2-3. So we know this buckle with 4-5-4 dates in about mid 1850s to 1862 most likely. John Sexton
CivilWarDealer.com

I would imagine its possible to have a modern buckle depicting a pre-CW flag and we have 3 examples of the old flag on a buckle. I agree its "most likely" pre-CW based on the flag but I think its more prudent to be dated by the attachment. Could you post the link of your buckle Bob? Its pictured with post-CW buttons.

The process at TN is about getting it right IMO. It doesnt matter who is right or who is wrong as long as the correct ID is made in the end. Mr. Sextons ID may indeed be correct. The green check is already posted but a few more examples would help solidify the determination made.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Just this morning I realized the green check mark has been lifted. Which indicates there must be a few questions remaining about the belt buckle's identification and the date it was made. I'm still interested in this topic and intend to do a little more research. Big Cy recently asked ... " Can we date the buckle by the stars on the flag?"
In response to his question, I present the following for your consideration. It is a very early Boy Scout watch fob. It depicts a 13 star flag in the 5-4-4 sequence. I am by no means an expert on any of this, but I do know that the Boy Scouts of America were incorporated on February 8, 1910. So this particular watch fob could not date any earlier than 1910. Which suggest to me the "strong possibility" that the buckle in question "may not" be as old as what has been previously suggested. Whether the clasp on the back of the buckle will date it as Big Cy inquired, I can't say. But it seems possible.

Big Cy ~

There were no details with the similar looking buckle that I posted. So posting the link, which I'm not sure I could even find again, would be of no help anyway. Plus, TheCannoballGuy already confirmed that the buttons with it were definitely "post" Civil War.

Here are a couple of links I thought would be of interest ...

1. Civil War Era Flag History: http://www.rareflags.com/RareFlags_Collecting_CivilWar.htm
(Be sure to click on the "43" at the bottom of this link and continue from there for more).

2. Wikipedia Boy Scouts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America

If I find anything proof-positive, I may be back. If not ... ?

Thanks.

SBB

[ Very Early Boy Scout Watch Fob ~ 13 Stars ~ 1910 or Later ]

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Good work Bob. Proof postive of pre civil war flag on a 1910 or later watch fob. I think John Sexton carefully chose his words saying "most likely." And he is probably "most likely" correct.


Can anybody confirm the dateline of the soldered-on attachment? ...Kuger? It could also solve the decades old Joe Lipsius buckle mystery pictured in several 80's treasure hunting mags.. http://www.69th-infantry-division.com/Joestuff/treasure_photos.htm

...Most have soldered or riveted loop and eye attachment such as yours ...

John Sexton
CivilWarDealer.com

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Check out this web site. It has 12 pages (hundreds) of Pre/During/Post Civil War belt buckles. I believe most of the ones pictured are reproductions, but if you click back to the guy's home page, you will read where every buckle pictured is based on an original, and that most of them he found himself since 1950. Some of the pictures show the clasp on the backs. But nowhere did I see a single buckle that even comes close to the one in question here. Surely if it was common (1800s) it would be pictured in this guy's collection ...

SBB

Link: http://hanoverbrass.com/more.htm

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

BigCypressHunter wrote:
> Good work Bob. Proof postive of pre civil war flag on a 1910 or later watch fob.

Let me also thank SodaBottleBob for posting visible proof that 13-star flags appear on very after-1865 Civilian Patriotic belt-buckles, lapel-pins, watchfobs, etc. Bob, you've saved me the labor of finding such photos to post them as proof here. Folks, please take my word for it that Civilian manufacturers feel no obligation whatsoever to show the "proper" or "correct" number of stars on such items.

> I think John Sexton carefully chose his words saying "most likely." And he is probably "most likely" correct.

John has been a personal friend of mine for several decades. I'm quite certain he would have no objection at all to what I'm about to say in response to his evaluation of this Ladies' Patriotic Sash-buckle.

John has frequently appeared as a consultant of the "Antiques Roadshow" television program. He does indeed phrase his answers very carefully for the eagerly-hopeful ordinary people who bring items for appraisal. Being a genuinely good-hearted man, he doesn't want to "crush" their hopes on-camera. (He would speak much more plainly and definitively to a Museum-Curator.) But notice that he does say this Patriotic Sash-buckle could date from as late as 1890.

> Can anybody confirm the dateline of the soldered-on attachment?

The very-unusual form of the soldered-on belt-attachment "UNIBODY" tongue-hook-&-beltloop-bar is the key to dating the buckle accurately. By "unibody," I mean the attachment is made from a SINGLE piece of sheetbrass, which was die-cut and then pressed into a combination tongue-hook & belt-retaining-bar. It is why I said (way back on Oct. 20, reply #6 in this dscussion) that this sash-buckle is from much later than the civil war era.

Some relic-collectors here are already aware that the "form of attachment" is actually much-much more important for accurately dating an object than whatever form of emblem is on the object's front. For example, that is especially true about accurately dating post-civil-war (and Reproduction) belt-buckles and insignia.

But, since some people have felt the dating issue didn't get settled a week ago... tonight I did the labor of closely examining every single one of the nearly 2,000 photos shown in the book "American Military belt Plates" by Michael J. O'Donnell & J. Duncan Campbell. It shows not just US Military buckles, but also State Militia, and Veterans, and Patriotic-Civilian buckles. It is the Authoritative book on the subject. Only ONE buckle in that entire 616-page book has the peculiar "unibody" tounge-&-bar attachment. It is shown on page 547, and the buckle is a Patriotic (not Military) civilian "Ladies' Presentation" buckle ...dated 1885-to-1905.

Isn't that Authoritative-source book information (and the book's total lack of a civil war or pre-civil-war example of the "unibody" tongue-&-bar attachment) sufficient enough to settle the issue?

> It could also solve the decades old Joe Lipsius buckle mystery pictured in several 80's treasure hunting mags.

I believe it does solve the Joe Lipsius buckle mystery. What do you think?

Edit: I forgot to include photos showing the thin stamped-brass "unibody" tongue-hook-&-belt-retaining-bar that was soldered onto the center of the buckle's back, so that it could be clearly seen and understood by everybody who reads this post. Here are the photos. Thanks, BigCypressHunter, for making and posting the cropped isolation view from another photo.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

TCG ~

Thanks to both you and Big Cy for the acknowledgement.

Here's what I think about your last post ...

SBB

[ Goes to TheCannonballGuy ]

 

[kuger]

Thanks CBG,I am no expert (you are)but am quite a student of buckles,but glad to hear my "gut",was fairly accurate on this one

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Very good explanation CBG. I think the reason the dating issue didn't get settled a week ago was John Sexton's opening line: "Your buckle is indeed most likely pre-Civil War or early war as you were told." If you read on he also says as CBG points out: "The manufacture of these buckles seem to date circa 1840-1890."

Ill try to remember using those words myself (most likely). While this flag is pre-CW, the buckle is most likely post-CW. Maybe I should stay quiet lol because CBG did a great job of explaining and nothing more needed to be said.


BTW I received a PM that the Joe Lipsius buckle was put in auction and sold in a grouping for $300.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check out this web site. It has 12 pages (hundreds) of Pre/During/Post Civil War belt buckles. I believe most of the ones pictured are reproductions, but if you click back to the guy's home page, you will read where every buckle pictured is based on an original, and that most of them he found himself since 1950. SBB

Link: http://hanoverbrass.com/more.htm

Wow thats a lot of reproductions. Future collectors may have a horrible time separating authentics from repros. Im sure some of these repros will be sold as fakes down the line intentionally or unintentionally.

 

[kuger]

Check out this web site. It has 12 pages (hundreds) of Pre/During/Post Civil War belt buckles. I believe most of the ones pictured are reproductions, but if you click back to the guy's home page, you will read where every buckle pictured is based on an original, and that most of them he found himself since 1950. SBB

Link: http://hanoverbrass.com/more.htm

Wow thats a lot of reproductions. Future collectors may have a horrible time separating authentics from repros. Im sure some of these repros will be sold as fakes down the line intentionally or unintentionally.

There are small things in each buckle that can be,"give aways",but...many you see on E-Bay are these very buckles expertly aged

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Check out this web site. It has 12 pages (hundreds) of Pre/During/Post Civil War belt buckles. I believe most of the ones pictured are reproductions, but if you click back to the guy's home page, you will read where every buckle pictured is based on an original, and that most of them he found himself since 1950. SBB

Link: http://hanoverbrass.com/more.htm

Wow thats a lot of reproductions. Future collectors may have a horrible time separating authentics from repros. Im sure some of these repros will be sold as fakes down the line intentionally or unintentionally.

There are small things in each buckle that can be,"give aways",but...many you see on E-Bay are these very buckles expertly aged

I think its horrible. There should be laws in place like the Hobby Protection Act with coins.

Throw some out in the dirt for 10-20 years and then what do we have? A mess.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I realize we all agree the buckle in question is post Civil War, but just for the record I thought I would add one more piece of evidence in support of this. The buckle below is described as ...

"Woman's Patriotic Belt Buckle ~ Silver ~ Art Nouveau ~ Circa 1890 to 1910"

There were no pictures of the back, nor any mention of the clasp. But notice that the flag has 13 stars in the 4-5-4 sequence.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

P.S. ~

I was watching "Pawn Stars" the other night, and that museum curator guy with the beard said that only 5% of the Civil War items on the open market today are authentic. Meaning that 95% are fakes!

 

[oldtimer82]

I realize the buckle below is not identical, but thought it might be similar enough to use as a gauge to approximately date the one in question. It is described as follows ...

CHILD'S CIVIL WAR ERA BLACK VELVET BELT ~ Circa 1865

"Having a brass buckle adorned with American flag and velvet belt is decorated with civil war era brass buttons."

~ * ~

Because of the angle the buckle is laying, it appears to be oval shaped. But I honestly think it's round.

I'm not a button expert, but maybe someone will recognize the ones on the belt and be able to confirm whether they are Civil War era or not. All I have to go on is the description.

SBB

as a Vermonter the button bottom left of buckle is a state shield Vt button,after civil war

 

[kuger]

Check out this web site. It has 12 pages (hundreds) of Pre/During/Post Civil War belt buckles. I believe most of the ones pictured are reproductions, but if you click back to the guy's home page, you will read where every buckle pictured is based on an original, and that most of them he found himself since 1950. SBB

Link: http://hanoverbrass.com/more.htm

Wow thats a lot of reproductions. Future collectors may have a horrible time separating authentics from repros. Im sure some of these repros will be sold as fakes down the line intentionally or unintentionally.

There are small things in each buckle that can be,"give aways",but...many you see on E-Bay are these very buckles expertly aged

I think its horrible. There should be laws in place like the Hobby Protection Act with coins.

Throw some out in the dirt for 10-20 years and then what do we have? A mess.

Unfortunately BCY,it doesnt take a quarter of that time for a "pro",to put Patina on them.As a collector of a very small period,I have taken it upon myself to study Hanovers buckles of my period very closley to find the small differences I noted

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

I looked on e-bay this morning, and using the following search words, came up with the corresponding results ...

1. Civil War = 88,031
2. Civil War Dug = 703
3. Civil War Relic = 590
4. Civil War Authentic = 211
5. Civil War Genuine = 33

Of course, the 88,031 includes everything from current books to anything and everything Civil War related. Whereas the others are a little more specific. One example is the buckle shown below, and is what I consider to be one of the more common types. It has five hours remaining before it closes; is currently at $242.49; and has 13 bids.

And even though the seller claims it's authentic and dug ... how would the average person like myself actually know if this is true or not? Answer: "I wouldn't know, and would be taking a huge gamble simply by relying on the sellers claim." And would I bid on it based on the information provided? Answer: "No way!"

But it's obvious that several bidders trust him. And even with the guarantee the seller provides, how long after receiving such an item would it take for someone like myself to have the buckle authenticated? Most likely not within the three days allowed for a return.

Bottom line? There is no way I would ever bid or buy something like this off of e-bay. And I don't care what the seller's track record is, I still wouldn't do it! Would you?

SBB

e-bay link to see what it sells for later today:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...akeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en

Added After Close of Auction:

Ended: Oct 30, 2011 16:54:33 PDT
Bid history: 18 bids
Winning bid: US $364.99