Archaic Copper point

[Glenn C]

...

 

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[CRUSADER]

If you notice there is a layer of black crust on the piece. Cooper goes from green ..to red.. then a back crust like you see. I will not clean it. I just put it in distilled water. If i fully cleaned it you could see..but id ruin it. A few more photos for you to see. They ground it with course rocks hence the line in each coŕner of notch. Unlike a mold. Regardless. It is what it is ..one of the best archaic examples ove seen. Thats why i posted it...if you in the area id be happy to show you up close. I was just really happy to see it at my archaic spot so i thought i would share.

Both of these 2 out of 3 shots prove that a cutting technique was used. Look how the saw came from 2 directions to produce a ridge that would never occur from any other process. Please explain?
The fact that you have found plenty of ancient copper doesn't explain why I find coke cans on a roman site?

 

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[CRUSADER]

Please see directions of cut.

 

[Glenn C]

,,,

 

[Glenn C]

...

 

[CRUSADER]

Old Copper Complex is a term used for ancient Native North American societies known to have been heavily involved in the utilization of copper for weaponry and tools. It is to be distinguished from the Copper Age (Chalcolithic era), when copper use becomes systematic because of the emergence of smelting techniques, which never developed in pre-Columbia North America.

The Old Copper Complex of the Western Great Lakes is the best known of these. Great Lakes natives of the Archaic tradition located 99% pure copper in the area of Lake Superior, both in veins and nuggets in gravel beds. Major quarries were located on Isle Royale, the Keweenaw Peninsula, and the Brule River, and copper was deposited elsewhere by glaciation as well.[SUP][2][/SUP] Eventually they learned to hammer the copper and produce a variety of spearpoints, tools and decorative objects. In addition to practical use, the Copper Complex peoples traded copper goods to obtain other exotic materials.

The Copper Complex can be dated as far back as 6,000 years. By about 3,000 years ago the use of copper is increasingly restricted to jewelry and other status-related items, rather than for tools. This is thought to represent the development of more complex hierarchical cultures in the area.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP]
The Copper Culture State Park, in Oconto, northeastern Wisconsin contains an ancient burial ground used by the Old Copper Complex Culture of early Native Americans, here between 5,000 and 6,000 years ago. It was rediscovered in June 1952 by a 13-year-old boy who unearthed human bones while playing in an old quarry. By July the first archaeological dig had commenced, as part of the program of the Wisconsin Archaeological Survey. - This is quoted from Wikipedia

And? I can google that. I like the read but whats the point? Pun?

 

[CRUSADER]

what would it look like if it was filed with a stone?

If you mean a sharp flint that can cut, rather than file, maybe?

 

[CRUSADER]

ill remove this post, don't need amateurs telling me what i know, you may be a coke master i'm sure, archaic you are not.

So, it sounds like instead of explaining your expert opinion, your going to call me an amateur. Thats fine because I am & I'm asking your opinion, but I'm getting a hostile approach. Why? Still trying to learn. Like I stated.

 

[CRUSADER]

PS. You may pick up on the fact I don't take 'face value', I'm sorry for not saying great find. Just not how my mind works. (even if your right which you haven't made clear)

 

[CRUSADER]

PPS. Just seen you lost it & deleted the pictures. If your right, which you may still be, why loss it & back down. Stick to your guns & teach us all. I'm willing to listen & learn.

 

[Helix]

And? I can google that. I like the read but whats the point? Pun?

No real point, just thought someone might want to learn about the process on how the native Americans worked with copper. That's why I posted it just for who ever might want to learn about it.

 

[bill from lachine]

Cru,

To the best of my knowledge the copper culture artifacts were cold forged in other words raw copper chunks or sheets were hammered with stones to flatten and folded over again and again to give them strength and then shaped or sharpened with stone tools to get the final results.

It's kind of the same methodology as making a summuri sword minus using the heat.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[CRUSADER]

Cru,

To the best of my knowledge the copper culture artifacts were cold forged in other words raw copper chunks or sheets were hammered with stones to flatten and folded over again and again to give them strength and then shaped or sharpened with stone tools to get the final results.

It's kind of the same methodology as making a summuri sword minus using the heat.

Regards + HH

Bill

Thank-you, that makes more sense. I was not trying to belittle the OPs post. I said what I see & I asked what I asked. Still hard to explain the different directions of cut that might be explained by sharp tools. Like I said, I want to learn & the OP had an interesting example that is still hard to explain by ancient tools. What it does not mean is that I'm saying he is wrong or it can't be explained, it just means I'm struggling to get my head around it.

 

[Glenn C]

I have posted many archaic pieces, seems like its a waste of time really. I get 2 replies on something older than the pyramids and a 80 year old coin goes banner, i'm just hunting in a different time frames that most are not aware of . Not to mention the archaic area was added to the native artifact section which is the "is this a artifact section" / rock s. You'll never be able to appreciate such a thing on this site because there is no understanding or literally place for it. No offence, cant be bothered defending myself. Once again, if your in the area id be happy to show anyone. I just finally found a killer in my nerd terms, and cant really prove it unless you can see and feel the irregularities of archaic copper in your hand. too much typing..

 

[sutphin]

AM I MISSING A PIC HERE .

 

[CRUSADER]

No real point, just thought someone might want to learn about the process on how the native Americans worked with copper. That's why I posted it just for who ever might want to learn about it.

Yes read it & interesting thanks, but still doesn't fill all the gaps.

 

[CRUSADER]

I have posted many archaic pieces, seems like its a waste of time really. I get 2 replies on something older than the pyramids and a 80 year old coin goes banner, i'm just hunting in a different time frames that most are not aware of . Not to mention the archaic area was added to the native artifact section which is the "is this a artifact section" / rock s. You'll never be able to appreciate such a thing on this site because there is no understanding or literally place for it. No offence, cant be bothered defending myself. Once again, if your in the area id be happy to show anyone. I just finally found a killer in my nerd terms, and cant really prove it unless you can see and feel the irregularities of archaic copper in your hand. too much typing..

Its never a waste of time & I now feel your passion. But if you fall into the trap that I do (sometimes) & just say 'I found an archaic item' with out explaining why, how can I understand & appreciate it? I made my comments on a picture & you are right in saying you have better judgement in person, but don't let my probing questions delete your post, because if I believe what you say, you have no reason to worry. Keep educating us because if you research like I think, it shouldn't be a problem?Help?

 

[Helix]

This might explain more.

Archaeological evidence has not revealed metal smelting or alloying of metals by pre-Columbian indigenous peoples north of the Rio Grande; however, they did use native copper extensively.[SUP][15][/SUP]
As widely accepted as this statement might be it should not be considered synonymous with a lack of metal objects, as it points out native copper was abundant particularly in the Great Lakes region and "overlooks the simple fact that there was really very little to be gained by smelting..."[SUP][16][/SUP] The latest glacial period had resulted in the scouring of copper bearing rocks. Once the ice retreated, these were readily available for use in a variety of sizes.[SUP][16][/SUP] Copper was shaped via cold hammering into objects from very early dates (Archaic period in the Great Lakes region: 8000–1000 BCE). There is also evidence of actual mining of copper veins (Old Copper Complex), but disagreement exists as to the dates


Extraction would have been extremely difficult. Hammerstones may have been used to break off pieces small enough to be worked. This labor-intensive process might have been eased by building a fire on top of the deposit, then quickly dousing the hot rock with water, creating small cracks. This process could be repeated to create more small cracks.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
The copper could then be cold-hammered into shape, which would make it brittle, or hammered and heated in an annealing process to avoid this. The final object would then have to be ground and sharpened using local sandstone. Numerous bars have also been found, possibly indicative[SUP][original research?][/SUP] of trade for which their shaping into a bar would also serve as proof of quality
Great Lake artifacts found in the Eastern Woodlands of North America seem to indicate there were widespread trading networks by 1000 BCE. Progressively the usage of copper for tools decreases with more jewellery and adornments being found. This is believed to be indicative of social changes to a more hierarchical society

However this Great Lake model as a unique source of copper and of copper technologies remaining somewhat static for over 6,000 years has recently come into some level of criticism, particularly since other deposits seem to have been available to ancient North Americans, even if a lot smaller.
During the Mississippian period (800–1600 CE, varying locally), elites at major political and religious centers throughout the midwestern and southeastern United States used copper ornamentation as a sign of their status by crafting the sacred material into representations connected with the Chiefly Warrior cult of the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (S.E.C.C.).[SUP][19][/SUP] This ornamentation includes Mississippian copper plates, repousséd plates of beaten copper now found as far afield as Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Tennessee. Some of the more famous of the plates are of raptorial birds and avian-themed dancing warriors. These plates, such as the Rogan plates from Etowah, the Spiro plates from the Spiro in Oklahoma, and the Wulfing cache from southeast Missouri, were instrumental in the development of the archaeological concept known as the S.E.C.C

The only Mississippian culture site where a copper workshop has been located by archaeologists is Cahokia in western Illinois.[SUP][20][/SUP] Excavations of the copper workshops at Mound 34 (a small mound located on the Ramey Plaza east of Monks Mound[SUP][21][/SUP]) indicate copper was worked there. Numerous copper fragments as well as ashes from fires were found in the area as well as the remains of three tree stumps thought to have been used to hold anvil stones used for beating out the flattened sheets of copper.

After the collapse of the Mississippian way of life in the 1500s with the advent of European colonization, copper still retained a place in Native American religious life as a special material. Copper was traditionally regarded as sacred by many historic period Eastern tribes. Copper nuggets are included in medicine bundles among Great Lakes tribes. Among 19th century Muscogee Creeks, a group of copper plates carried along the Trail of Tears are regarded as some of the tribe's most sacred items

 

[CRUSADER]

This might explain more.

Archaeological evidence has not revealed metal smelting or alloying of metals by pre-Columbian indigenous peoples north of the Rio Grande; however, they did use native copper extensively.[SUP][15][/SUP]
As widely accepted as this statement might be it should not be considered synonymous with a lack of metal objects, as it points out native copper was abundant particularly in the Great Lakes region and "overlooks the simple fact that there was really very little to be gained by smelting..."[SUP][16][/SUP] The latest glacial period had resulted in the scouring of copper bearing rocks. Once the ice retreated, these were readily available for use in a variety of sizes.[SUP][16][/SUP] Copper was shaped via cold hammering into objects from very early dates (Archaic period in the Great Lakes region: 8000–1000 BCE). There is also evidence of actual mining of copper veins (Old Copper Complex), but disagreement exists as to the dates


Extraction would have been extremely difficult. Hammerstones may have been used to break off pieces small enough to be worked. This labor-intensive process might have been eased by building a fire on top of the deposit, then quickly dousing the hot rock with water, creating small cracks. This process could be repeated to create more small cracks.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
The copper could then be cold-hammered into shape, which would make it brittle, or hammered and heated in an annealing process to avoid this. The final object would then have to be ground and sharpened using local sandstone. Numerous bars have also been found, possibly indicative[SUP][original research?][/SUP] of trade for which their shaping into a bar would also serve as proof of quality
Great Lake artifacts found in the Eastern Woodlands of North America seem to indicate there were widespread trading networks by 1000 BCE. Progressively the usage of copper for tools decreases with more jewellery and adornments being found. This is believed to be indicative of social changes to a more hierarchical society

However this Great Lake model as a unique source of copper and of copper technologies remaining somewhat static for over 6,000 years has recently come into some level of criticism, particularly since other deposits seem to have been available to ancient North Americans, even if a lot smaller.
During the Mississippian period (800–1600 CE, varying locally), elites at major political and religious centers throughout the midwestern and southeastern United States used copper ornamentation as a sign of their status by crafting the sacred material into representations connected with the Chiefly Warrior cult of the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (S.E.C.C.).[SUP][19][/SUP] This ornamentation includes Mississippian copper plates, repousséd plates of beaten copper now found as far afield as Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Tennessee. Some of the more famous of the plates are of raptorial birds and avian-themed dancing warriors. These plates, such as the Rogan plates from Etowah, the Spiro plates from the Spiro in Oklahoma, and the Wulfing cache from southeast Missouri, were instrumental in the development of the archaeological concept known as the S.E.C.C

The only Mississippian culture site where a copper workshop has been located by archaeologists is Cahokia in western Illinois.[SUP][20][/SUP] Excavations of the copper workshops at Mound 34 (a small mound located on the Ramey Plaza east of Monks Mound[SUP][21][/SUP]) indicate copper was worked there. Numerous copper fragments as well as ashes from fires were found in the area as well as the remains of three tree stumps thought to have been used to hold anvil stones used for beating out the flattened sheets of copper.

After the collapse of the Mississippian way of life in the 1500s with the advent of European colonization, copper still retained a place in Native American religious life as a special material. Copper was traditionally regarded as sacred by many historic period Eastern tribes. Copper nuggets are included in medicine bundles among Great Lakes tribes. Among 19th century Muscogee Creeks, a group of copper plates carried along the Trail of Tears are regarded as some of the tribe's most sacred items

Ok, reading this, there is a lot of 'mays', so in reality they are not sure. Thanks.

 

[OWK]

Man... what the heck happened in here?

 

[bill from lachine]

Cru,

Ironically the experts on archaic copper culture are mostly amateur detectorists....very little expertise by the archeological crowd when it comes to these finds....I've seen hundreds of these items posted on the Canadian forum over the years....so I have a pretty good feel for those which are the real mccoy.

This item threw me off somewhat because most of the items I've seen posted have very heavy verdigris....but like Glenn stated over time the pieces will eventually take on a blackish tint...Glenn has done his due dilligence so take him at his word that this is the real deal.

Regards + HH

Bill

Thank-you, that makes more sense. I was not trying to belittle the OPs post. I said what I see & I asked what I asked. Still hard to explain the different directions of cut that might be explained by sharp tools. Like I said, I want to learn & the OP had an interesting example that is still hard to explain by ancient tools. What it does not mean is that I'm saying he is wrong or it can't be explained, it just means I'm struggling to get my head around it.