Archaic Copper point

[Glenn C]

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[Helix]

Interesting post. I agree this subject seems overlooked, at least here on Tnet . I am willing to bet many a crude native copper pieces have been tossed out by the uneducated detectorist. When I first started detecting years ago I was only thinking modern coins and relics. Then after some years I started realizing I seemed to be finding small chunks of copper. ( float, drift or native copper) What is this stuff I thought? So looking into it I learned about this whole new area of finds I might be over looking. Here is a good personal story of how I over looked or thought nothing of it. Years ago, probably first year or two I was detecting in some woods an came across a what looked like small pile of long square nail looking items. maybe a dozen or so also some flat "scrap" copper pieces. I thought that's strange why it would be in a pile off all alone with no other targets around. Anyhow I covered it up and walked away. Years later now looking back good chances are that I found a tool kit and didn't know any better and thought it was junk. What I thought were nails were probably awls at least that I know. Years later I went back to these woods and tried to relocate, found one lone random awl but not the dozen or so I remember. This is my personal experience with the Native Copper.

 

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[FreeBirdTim]

Wow, if I badgered someone this much I'd be accused of "attacking" the poster and probably be banned for life. Enough is enough. Stop nitpicking and leave the man alone...

 

[against the wind]

I remember a time when the people of my village wanted to exile me because I believed differently than they did.
Well, the day did come when someone else proved to them that world was not flat.
Just saying.

 

[CRUSADER]

Wow, if I badgered someone this much I'd be accused of "attacking" the poster and probably be banned for life. Enough is enough. Stop nitpicking and leave the man alone...

Who made you MOD? If anyone is unhappy they can report it like anyone else.

I know I learnt alot from this & its been very interesting, I'm glad he posted it, maybe I went on a bit, but nothing was personal. If anyone is 'nitpicking' its you & I'm taking what you say personally. Have a nice day.

 

[Helix]

Wow, if I badgered someone this much I'd be accused of "attacking" the poster and probably be banned for life. Enough is enough. Stop nitpicking and leave the man alone...

LOL.. That's what one of my High School teachers said because I would ask too many questions. " Stop badgering or bothering me". He took it as I was attacking him when actually I was just aggressively asking questions interested in the subject. Ok im done , its a nice find in my book!

 

[CRUSADER]

I'll just finish my badgering with this post; in less than 2 days this has had over 1000 views. Thats double what my average post gets.

 

[FreeBirdTim]

Who made you MOD? If anyone is unhappy they can report it like anyone else

Why not just congratulate the man on his find and be done with it? If you disagree with his assessment of the find, send him a PM and discuss it further. No need to keep up with the public 20 questions routine.

 

[Glenn C]

The point on the left does not seem to be pure copper. It seem to be mixed with another alloy. I found a point that looked similar in color that was not copper or brass but some mix of metals. I have found trade points similar to the one on the left. The question that i can not get around is what items were traded during the the fur trade era which were made of thick copper that they could have used?
I can see them coming across copper to work with, but what was traded that was that thick that could be remade into something that thick. I have jewelry and tinkers etc etc, made of kettle metal. They are all consistent in thickness. Where does thick copper from? I have never found or seen a trade piece with thick copper. That does not make sense, sorry. Until i can see a trade item with copper that thick i cannot believe they had copper that thick. I am cleaning it further at this point. I do see where you would assume it to be a modern cuts to notch it. They did have tools back then as well, chisels etc. I do appreciate feed back as these pieces are usually one offs and hard to tell. No worries Crusader, i get where you were coming from. Cheers

The copper trade point that I found two years ago at a Mandan village site is not that thick (.32 of an inch) , but that does not mean that thicker pieces of metal were not cut. I will try and post you some photo's.



View attachment 1226305 View attachment 1226306

 

[Helix]

The point on the left does not seem to be pure copper. It seem to be mixed with another alloy. I found a point that looked similar in color that was not copper or brass but some mix of metals. I have found trade points similar to the one on the left. The question that i can not get around is what items were traded during the the fur trade era which were made of thick copper that they could have used?
I can see them coming across copper to work with, but what was traded that was that thick that could be remade into something that thick. I have jewelry and tinkers etc etc, made of kettle metal. They are all consistent in thickness. Where does thick copper from? I have never found or seen a trade piece with thick copper. That does not make sense, sorry. Until i can see a trade item with copper that thick i cannot believe they had copper that thick. I am cleaning it further at this point. I do see where you would assume it to be a modern cuts to notch it. They did have tools back then as well, chisels etc. I do appreciate feed back as these pieces are usually one offs and hard to tell. No worries Crusader, i get where you were coming from. Cheers

Here is a 35lb. piece of drift copper I found a few years back. I am not going to do it but with using the tools the Native Americans had on hand 4,000 years ago I am sure I could come close to something very uniformly flat. How thick do you want it? Now after 1500 a.d. and the introduction of European technology everything changed. I do agree your point is at least within the last 1,000 years. Very interesting topic!

 

[Glenn C]

Wow. Not that's a chunk. Must have blew your ears off!

 

[Helix]

Wow. Not thats a chuck!. Must have blew your ears off!

Yes this was the find that got me interested in the Old Copper Complex. It was laying same way as shown in the picture directly on top of the gravel sub soil. Witch was dragged down with the most recent glaciers thousands of years ago. (Im in Illinois by the way.) It was a solid 92 on the Garrett. As I uncovered it I was thinking its modern blob of modern melted camp fire metal. Then I realized it is in fact copper witch alone has some value. Why would someone melt a bunch of copper and bury it I thought? So I got it home and figured it was something but didn't know. So I posted It here on Tnet in 2013 and end of story. True story go back and look at my history.

Here is a picture of the bottom my 35lber. Clearly shows how it was dragged. Kind of flat and has lines from being drug across other rock.

 

[Helix]

I also want to add one last on this subject. Now from what I understand (or have read) thousands of years ago when the last glaciers retreated originally copper was found in some what abundance in rivers and streams mostly. Pieces weighing excess of a few tons and as small as a pebble. As time went on and it was pick up and used it became more scarce. That's why very early on you see lots of copper tools and utility items but as time went on it became much rare and valuable thus the trend towards jewelry and ceremonial items. Just read some accounts of the farmers who sod busted the Midwest U.S. in the 1800s . Not uncommon for there plowing to expose very large (tons in weight) pieces of drift copper.

 

[timelord]

Finding a copper point really changed your view of metal detecting, it did me. At first you don't know what you found, I thought maybe it was something a couple hundred years old. Maybe someone tried to make there own arrowhead. Then when you get home and start research it, then your mind if opened up to how old a peace you have in your hands.

In my case it was confirmed to be between 4000-7000 years old. I have found many firsts this last couple years, barbers, walkers, SLQ but the only thing I have displayed is my copper point. They say it's a once in a lifetime find and that might be so but your always wishing you will find more.

This is my point to let you see what it looked like.

 

[Wyoming Valley Relics]

Why not just congratulate the man on his find and be done with it? If you disagree with his assessment of the find, send him a PM and discuss it further. No need to keep up with the public 20 questions routine.

you make a good point and i almost agree. The bigger problem is , if this information isn't corrected , out in the open on the forum , the less informed out there will be even dumber then they were before.

 

[old digger]

The point on the left does not seem to be pure copper. It seem to be mixed with another alloy. I found a point that looked similar in color that was not copper or brass but some mix of metals. I have found trade points similar to the one on the left. The question that i can not get around is what items were traded during the the fur trade era which were made of thick copper that they could have used?
I can see them coming across copper to work with, but what was traded that was that thick that could be remade into something that thick. I have jewelry and tinkers etc etc, made of kettle metal. They are all consistent in thickness. Where does thick copper from? I have never found or seen a trade piece with thick copper. That does not make sense, sorry. Until i can see a trade item with copper that thick i cannot believe they had copper that thick. I am cleaning it further at this point. I do see where you would assume it to be a modern cuts to notch it. They did have tools back then as well, chisels etc.

The larger one on the left is iron, and the smaller one on the right is copper. Both types were used in trading for furs by the Hudson Bay Trading Co. The thicker piece that you have may have been made by an enterprising individual (Fur Trader) so they could acquire more furs.

 

[CRUSADER]

Why not just congratulate the man on his find and be done with it? If you disagree with his assessment of the find, send him a PM and discuss it further. No need to keep up with the public 20 questions routine.

In the same way you could have PMed me? Follow your own advice next time. Also no-one learns if we all have private discussions, & Tnet would be useless to me & thousands of others.

 

[CRUSADER]

you make a good point and i almost agree. The bigger problem is , if this information isn't corrected , out in the open on the forum , the less informed out there will be even dumber then they were before.

This is another reason we should all work together. I'm still enjoying this debate, & was going to give up yesterday but have now got sucked back in. I'm not saying this is a good example but lets pretend that everyone just said 'great find' & 'banner vote' with no reasearch & just took the posters word. What then can happen is it makes banner on one of the biggest detecting sites in the world & everyone else uses it as their source material. Before you know it ebayers are cashing in & the 'myth' is out there.

 

[CRUSADER]

The larger one on the left is iron, and the smaller one on the right is copper. Both types were used in trading for furs by the Hudson Bay Trading Co. The thicker piece that you have may have been made by an enterprising individual (Fur Trader) so they could acquire more furs.

Glenn has a very good point & the thickness is hard to explain & does need solving. One of my guesses was what you said. Maybe, someone pre-made these in the country of origin before travelling over. But that would need some proving.

 

[pepperj]

This is another reason we should all work together. I'm still enjoying this debate, & was going to give up yesterday but have now got sucked back in. I'm not saying this is a good example but lets pretend that everyone just said 'great find' & 'banner vote' with no reasearch & just the posters word. What then can happen is it makes banner on one of the biggest detecting sites in the world & everyone else uses it as their source material. Before you know it ebayers are cashing in & the 'myth' is out there.

It's one of the more interesting threads/posts as it's an educational, and a tool for all of us to discuss the different possibilities of what this or other finds are actually. Oh it's so easy to go through life being a sheep in the thinking/doing process, just follow the masses and accept what's served up on the plate. It's when somebody questions it that things change or explained.
Great post up Glenn and to you Cru for keeping wondering as it's oh so easy to go with the flow.

 

[Glenn C]

I have cleaned it further which still leaves me wondering. There are clear signs of the copper being hammerd. I have done my best to catch light on it to show the pecking and concave areas. Seems the darker patina is in the lower areas. This definitely has been pounded by a object.
If the piece was trade copper and flat there would be no reason to pound it flat? It has been ground on all side to make it sharp.
I honestly am at a loss for reasoning. The ground is alway disturbed in these areas..flipped several times frkm making homes etc. Could it be a archaic piece that was found in the soil while making a home. Lord knows i found points that way. Could it be possible it was refashioned with more modern techniques? Im not sure i just cannot get around the thickness.
A few picks and on with kettel metal.