are school yards private property

[350firefighter]

hey folks,this sunday was metal detecting on play grounds of elementary schools,one women,got on the intercom and said i was tresspassing on private property.schools are out for the summer,not posted.was this a person makin rules or is taxes payers not allowed on tax property

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

No they are not "private property". So in that sense, she had her vocabulary wrong. But while it may be "public property", yet the govt. can set up rules of usage. For example: A library may be "public property", yet they can set opening and closing hours. If you go in through a window at 2am at a closed library, you can be guilty of "trespassing" (yes, on public property). And all sorts of other "rules" for the public good, on public property (ie.: no dogs allowed, no alcohol, no motorized vehicles on the grass, etc...).

So here's what would happen if you challenged her usage of words: While you might successfully show her that it is public property, she could just turn around try to tell you that you're improperly using it (for whatever lame-*ss reason she wants to try to morph to apply to you). And then you just enter into a p*ssing match of whether or not you have really violated any usage rules. It may be entirely true that the school yards are not open to public usage. ie.: students only or whatever. Starting about 25 or 30 yrs. ago, fences started popping up at public schools all over the united states, with signs (that no one pays attention to BTW) stating something like "permission to pass revokable" or "check in at school office" or something like that. But there is usually still an always-propped open turn-style gate, and people still jog the track, play basketball, or whatever. In other words, the sign is there so they can shoo away perverts, or to keep from getting sued if you fall off the swingset and try to sue them (they can say "well you shouldn't have been there", etc...).

Most of the time you can still detect these schools till your heart's content, just as any other type after-school user seems to still do so. But as you know, detecting is an odd-ball hobby, that someone might think is damaging (perhaps she saw you in the middle of a retreival and didn't know you won't leave any traces). You can try to debate her on that point, but you know where that will probably go.

The best bet is to be more discreet, and go at more off-hours, and just avoid her shift in the future.

 

[srcdco]

Although schools are public property (I have had this argument before, too, with school "employees"), at least in NY state you are required by law to leave immediately if asked by any school "employee". I got that information from our local state senators office after being kicked off a school property on a Sunday afternoon. The guy that kicked me off was the superintendent of the school and kept insisting that it was private property. By the time I was done with him, he was so confused. Then he got mad and reached for his cell phone to call the Police. He told me that he doesn't let anyone use the school property off hours and he lived across the street. I heard about a year later that he had died, but I haven't been back since anyway.

Scott

 

[350firefighter]

thanks tom and srcdco,for the response,i had an idea,but just like to hear from others,thanks 350firefighter

 

[fistfulladirt]

Like all other places, it might just be best to get permission first.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

fist-full, I would digress from this advice to seek permission, where detecting or access is not specifically disallowed. To me, that would seem like saying a person should seek permission to fly a frisbee at a park, or something like that. The problem with seeking permission (as if it was needed in the first place) "just to be safe" (afterall, what harm can it do?) is that you can sometimes get a "no", where no one might have otherwise cared, or given the matter thought (till you asked).

I mean, the mere fact that someone is standing there "asking permission", simply infers that your issue needs some sort of sanction, or is somehow inherently wrong, which caused you to seek their permission, in the first place. With that inference in mind, the "no's" are easily forthcoming. And they can be in places where people have detected for decades, un-bothered. It's the old addage: "sometimes no one cares.......... UNTIL you ask". I've seen this happen before, at public parks.

In fact, it can get worse than this: If that desk-bound bureaucrat you asked your "pressing question" to, sees no prohibitions, they can simply make a rule (or morph something silly to apply to you), to "address your pressing issue". I've seen that happen before, when someone objected "but where is that written??" :P

 

[fistfulladirt]

fist-full, I would digress from this advice to seek permission, where detecting or access is not specifically disallowed. To me, that would seem like saying a person should seek permission to fly a frisbee at a park, or something like that. The problem with seeking permission (as if it was needed in the first place) "just to be safe" (afterall, what harm can it do?) is that you can sometimes get a "no", where no one might have otherwise cared, or given the matter thought (till you asked).

I mean, the mere fact that someone is standing there "asking permission", simply infers that your issue needs some sort of sanction, or is somehow inherently wrong, which caused you to seek their permission, in the first place. With that inference in mind, the "no's" are easily forthcoming. And they can be in places where people have detected for decades, un-bothered. It's the old addage: "sometimes no one cares.......... UNTIL you ask". I've seen this happen before, at public parks.

In fact, it can get worse than this: If that desk-bound bureaucrat you asked your "pressing question" to, sees no prohibitions, they can simply make a rule (or morph something silly to apply to you), to "address your pressing issue". I've seen that happen before, when someone objected "but where is that written??" :P

Tom, I agree somewhat, but the poor guy got yelled at anyway for tresspassing.
I once called a local parks dept to ask permission to hunt a city park. The parks worker on the other end laughed and said "I can't recall anyone ever calling to ask permission." He did give me the ok without any lecturing about holes, etc. I just felt better. I guess I'd rather seek permission than risk a run-in with the law and legal battles.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

"but the poor guy got yelled at anyway for tresspassing."

Well perhaps he was being "yelled at", because no public access was allowed at that school. In other words, perhaps detecting is not the issue at all here. Firefighter has not said whether it's one of those schools that has fences up (as has unfortunately happened in this litigical age we live in).

The bottom line is, if a person is afraid of ever getting "yelled at", then perhaps this isn't the hobby for them. Heck, you can get yelled at for simply driving down the road (because someone else perceives you cut them off in traffic, or aren't going fast enough, or whatever).

You say:

"I guess I'd rather seek permission than risk a run-in with the law and legal battles."

There is a lot of implications and issues wrapped up in this statement. Let's look at them individually:

1) If you are doing an activity, which is not specifically disallowed, then I don't see what "run in with the law and legal battles" you would incur. Again, if it is not dis-allowed, how are you in violation of something? And no, I don't consider "destruction" "vandalism" and "damage" type clauses to apply to us. Because if WE know we will leave no trace of our presense, then that's good enough. To think otherwise, is to already have lost the battle. Because if you think you are inherently destructive or damaging, then yes, you are right. Don't go metal detecting anywhere, because you will never ever get permission to "destruct and damage" the park, anywhere in the United States.

2) Your statement implies that by gaining permission to seek such public parks and schools, will keep you free from legal hassles, yelling, etc... I can assure you this is not the case. Yes, perhaps no "legal hassles" from that one desk-bound bureacrat to who told you "go ahead". But from others? Not a chance. There have been countless stories of persons who "got permission" from city hall somewhere, and STILL get the wrath of some rank & file worker in the field. When the md'r cites his permission, the worker gets on the phone, calls to city hall (or the police dept. or to whomever gave the "permission") and gets that "permission" promptly revoked. And you, the dejected md'r, got yelled at. You may say "but at least I won't get arrested, because they .... in the short run ..... gave me permission". To that I say, re-read pt. #1. You will not get "arrested" for something that is not specifically dis-allowed. You'd have to repeatedly ignore warnings (and have failed to show them you're not "destructing") for something like this to happen, in a case where they try to morph something else to apply to you.

3) The whole premise of a statement like this, merely implies, once again, that this hobby is something that needs permission, because it is inherently evil or wrong. I still say that this would be akin to asking permission to stand on your head. Can you do it? Sure! And might a park worker say "I grant you permission to stand on your head?" Sure! And might this keep you safe from someone yelling at you, and legal hassles for standing on your head? Sure! I suppose.

Let's face it: we're in an odd hobby. The "geiger-counter" wielding guy in the park draws stares and curiousity. And true, some folk may have a knee-jerk reaction, if they see you with a lesche or screwdriver, that you are going to be a nuisance, leaving messes. No amount of "permission" is going to allay that. My hunch is, in that city where that park worker laughed at you for even asking, would probably never have even noticed or cared, if he'd just passed you by. But contrastly, there are a lot of people who have tried this, and gotten "no's", where no one ever cared before. Now guess what's going to happen, when that person who fielded such an inquiry, sees other people md'ing in the future? They're going to remember the earlier inquiry, and start booting others! I've seen this happen before. Moral of the story? :P

 

[SamN]

I asked a cop once while driving through a park if I can detect-he got on the radio and asked the dispatcher? She said I can hunt but can't Dig??

 

[dogpound]

i only ask permission if its a state park or private property, any public park, school, playground, or township parks or property i just check on their board of rules at that site. if metal detecting isn't specificly listed on their "don't do" list then i detect it. i figure if there's an issue with me being there i'm sure i'll find out in the first 1/2 hour or sooner. then i'll just pack up and leave and act like i didn't know any better. figure why draw attention to myself unless its clearly posted

 

[DiggerSteveL]

I asked a cop once while driving through a park if I can detect-he got on the radio and asked the dispatcher? She said I can hunt but can't Dig??

Well, actually, you could say I don't dig. I cut a plug, retrieve any items, and then replace the plug.

 

[BigWaveDave]

Welcome to the forum Steve

 

[Honest Samuel]

With Connecticut state parks, we are allow to search and dig on beaches, but, on land, we can use detectors, but, no digging. Does not make sense. Good hunting and good luck. Public schools and other public buildings including city halls, we can search without permission. And yes, I still love Dave wife.

 

[boogeyman]

Like all other places, it might just be best to get permission first.

What seems to work 90% of the time for me is to go late or on Saturdays when the janitors are there. Find the janitor and ask him for permission. Don't take any tools that look capable of digging a 1" x 1" hole. Keep an eye out where the janitor is when he leaves you leave. An offer of a soda & one of your sandwiches goes a long way. The other thing that seems to help a lot is to show him the dangerous junk you rid the school of, even if part of it is from the park across the street.

Think - The janitors aren't paid much & have a boring thankless job, so a free lunch, soda, and a little company goes a long way.

Works for me, give it a try!

 

[beerguy]

This is a topical thread for me. I called a local school district to ask if they allowed MDing and got a green light. I have been working that districts sites for a year now.

I just emailed another district, and got the following reply, cut and pasted from the email:

Thank you for your inquiry regarding hunting for metal on Arlington Public Schools properties. Board policies and procedures provide the framework for governance and administration of school operations. Board policy and procedure do not provide an explicit bar to hunting for metal on district grounds, however, other requirements of the policy and procedure restrain the district from providing authorization for these activities.

Board policy 4260 states that the Board of Directors "...believes that public schools are owned and operated by and for the community," authorizes the Superintendent to create procedures for the use of school facilities, and requires facilities users to provide proof of liability insurance to indemnify the district in the event of injury or damage. At present, users must provide a minimum of $1 million in liability insurance. Here is a link to that board policy: http(colon)//www.asd.wednet.edu/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=4637561

Procedure 4260P specifically bars any use that would result in damage to fields and lawns. Given that retrieving found objects may require extraction of some kind, we must conclude that the request use is prohibited. Here is a link to that procedure http(colon)//www.asd.wednet.edu/common/pages/DisplayFile.aspx?itemId=4637565

Again, thank you for your inquiry and please let me know if you have further questions.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Beer Guy, some observations:

..... I called a local school district to ask if they allowed MDing and got a green light. I have been working that districts sites for a year now......

Great that you got a "yes" in that particular case. But a "yes" , to me, does not bolster the assertion of: "See? It's a good thing I asked" . Because so too could you have come away with the same conclusion if they'd arbitrarily answered "no" too. Because then you'd have been saying to yourself: "See? It's a good thing I asked". So either a "yes" or a "no" seems to bolster the notion of "asking was necessary" . Lest how else could they have ever given you an answer, if their say-so wasn't necessary?

But seriously now, did you really think they could have answered a 3rd type of way: " Gee, that's a silly question. You don't need our permission, since it's public property". Nope. Authority never works like that. They will bestow on you their princely yes or no, but never an inbetween answer. In the same way if you asked "Can I breath?" and they said "yes", does that mean their authority/permission was needed to breath ? No.

I just emailed another district, and got the following reply, cut and pasted from the email:

......... authorizes the Superintendent to create procedures for the use of school facilities, and requires facilities users to provide proof of liability insurance to indemnify the district in the event of injury or damage. At present, users must provide a minimum of $1 million in liability insurance..........

Beer guy: Re.: other persons using the school grounds, after hours, for shooting hoops, jogging the track, flying a kite, walking their dog, etc.... : Do you think all of them got a $1 million dollar insurance policy ? If you think they did, then by all means, consider this "pat" answer to be legit. But if you DON'T think those other users got this policy, then consider this answer to be nothing more than the old addage of "No one cared till you asked" syndrome.

..... Procedure 4260P specifically bars any use that would result in damage to fields and lawns. Given that retrieving found objects may require extraction of some kind, we must conclude that the request use is prohibited. ......

Beer-guy, Weren't you going to leave no trace and no damage ? OF COURSE. Then as you can see: The mental knee-jerk reaction that some people have to a man with a metal detector is "holes". Hence the easy answer of "no", to your "pressing question".

Worse yet, guess what's going to be the reaction of that desk-jockey pencil-pusher the next time they drive past the school yard and see a man with a detector ? (whom they would probably never have paid a 2nd glance to previously). They'll recall the earlier inquiry and think: "aha! There's one of *them* " And start booting others.

Next time just go, and don't grovel.

 

[boogeyman]

Beer Guy, some observations:



Great that you got a "yes" in that particular case. But a "yes" , to me, does not bolster the assertion of: "See? It's a good thing I asked" . Because so too could you have come away with the same conclusion if they'd arbitrarily answered "no" too. Because then you'd have been saying to yourself: "See? It's a good thing I asked". So either a "yes" or a "no" seems to bolster the notion of "asking was necessary" . Lest how else could they have ever given you an answer, if their say-so wasn't necessary?

But seriously now, did you really think they could have answered a 3rd type of way: " Gee, that's a silly question. You don't need our permission, since it's public property". Nope. Authority never works like that. They will bestow on you their princely yes or no, but never an inbetween answer. In the same way if you asked "Can I breath?" and they said "yes", does that mean their authority/permission was needed to breath ? No.



Beer guy: Re.: other persons using the school grounds, after hours, for shooting hoops, jogging the track, flying a kite, walking their dog, etc.... : Do you think all of them got a $1 million dollar insurance policy ? If you think they did, then by all means, consider this "pat" answer to be legit. But if you DON'T think those other users got this policy, then consider this answer to be nothing more than the old addage of "No one cared till you asked" syndrome.



Beer-guy, Weren't you going to leave no trace and no damage ? OF COURSE. Then as you can see: The mental knee-jerk reaction that some people have to a man with a metal detector is "holes". Hence the easy answer of "no", to your "pressing question".

Worse yet, guess what's going to be the reaction of that desk-jockey pencil-pusher the next time they drive past the school yard and see a man with a detector ? (whom they would probably never have paid a 2nd glance to previously). They'll recall the earlier inquiry and think: "aha! There's one of *them* " And start booting others.

Next time just go, and don't grovel.

I don't see anything but a simple NO in that letter. using less eloquent speech. It translates to 1million dollar insurance policy, no regular person could afford that so they'll go away. Those metal detector people will want to dig, so no digging will finish that request. Just a nice political way to say NO without saying NO and causing any negative political problems.

As far as your YES, that'll last as long as the person that gave you the OK remembers you or someone higher up nixes your OK.

Now You need to think of this scenario......... Some idiot shows up and digs ankle deep holes everywhere and splits. They try to figure out who the culprit is yup! "I know who it is!" "I have his name from the letter he sent to get permission!!!" Ok now, prove it wasn't you that left the holes" Make sense? Look back up to my post. You have a janitor to witness for you, you've made a friend, and possibly gotten a new hunting buddy!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

..... Look back up to my post. You have a janitor to witness for you,.....

What if the janitor also says "no" ? (yet it's nothing but the arbitrary "safe" answer)

Or what if he says "yes", but the neighborhood lookie-lou , (or soccer coach etc.... ) gripes to higher channels ? You whip out your "permission", but guess what happens next ?

Thus maybe the best tactic is to choose lower traffic times when "miss lookie lou", the "soccer coach" and the "janitor" aren't an issue ?

 

[JoeDirty]

I hunt schools sometimes. I just make sure they are empty. Then i ghost in and rob the ground clean of all the lost treasures like a pirate and move on.

 

[boogeyman]

What if the janitor also says "no" ? (yet it's nothing but the arbitrary "safe" answer)

Or what if he says "yes", but the neighborhood lookie-lou , (or soccer coach etc.... ) gripes to higher channels ? You whip out your "permission", but guess what happens next ?

Thus maybe the best tactic is to choose lower traffic times when "miss lookie lou", the "soccer coach" and the "janitor" aren't an issue ?

What if, what if, what if. Jeeze Tom, it's not that hard! If the janitor says no not a biggie! It's not like there's not a ton of other schools to hunt How many schools are there in Ca? How many schools in just the Newport Mesa Unified School District for an example? Heck there's a school on the beach at Balboa & 15th St. (best of both worlds school & beach) So not getting to hunt one school ain't no biggie! Ask the janitor? At least you might have made a friend. Maybe just maybe you'll get permission and (from experience) getting told by the janitor I work over at **** school after I'm finished here why don't ya follow me?

Ok? Have a nice day, lots of finds to you! Thanks for playing!