Atlantis

[cactusjumper]

Brett,

As long as one person still believes in the story of Atlantis, it exists.......in some form. I still believe in the base of the story, if not in the written details. As written, I believe it needs something (not of this world) to explain its creation.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Oroblanco]

Brett wrote

Finally the Atlantis discussion has stopped. It does.not.exist.

Atlantis exists, you can visit it
http://www.familyfunatatlantis.com/?gclid=COaLibaeo60CFWmhtgoddE0DnA

The discussion stopped due to reaching loggerheads; it is not possible to prove either side of the debate beyond dispute.

Cactusjumper wrote

As written, I believe it needs something (not of this world) to explain its creation.

The eminent ancient biographer Plutarch would agree, hence his accusation against Plato

"Plato, willing to improve the story of the Atlantic Island, as if it were a fair estate that wanted an heir and came with some title to him, formed, indeed, stately entrances, noble enclosures, large courts, such as never yet introduced any story, fable, or poetic fiction; but, beginning it late, ended his life before his work; and the reader's regret for the unfinished part is the greater, as the satisfaction he takes in that which is complete is extraordinary."
<from Life of Solon, Plutarch>

Yet there are hints that even the story of Atlantis had considerably more to it, perhaps no giant ring-canals but a more complex and interesting history which was so daunting that it stymied two outstanding Greek authors - Plato and Solon, for Solon had started to write the history but gave it up, again citing Plutarch;

"Now Solon, having begun the great work in verse, the history or fable of the Atlantic Island, which he had learned from the wise men in Sais, and thought convenient for the Athenians to know, abandoned it; not, as Plato says, by reason of want of time, but because of his age, and being discouraged at the greatness of the task; for that he had leisure enough, "
<ibid>
Both Plato and Solon seem to have been daunted by the "greatness of the task" of writing the history for neither completed it. I wonder what else was known?

Thanks to Plato's embellishments as well as those of modern seers like Edgar Cayce, I have serious doubt that were Atlantis unearthed tomorrow, whether anyone would recognize it.

Wishing you all a very happy and prosperous New Year,
Oroblanco

Sage advice from wise old Solon;
"Each day grow older, and learn something new;"

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Brett: you asked, "is it possible to prove either side of the question? Yes, however, logical deductions, and skimpy data, while statistically, and probably factually correct, will not be accepted by bull headed, arrogant, --deleted--, biased, disbelievers. Being a gentlemanly, SAINT, I will not mention names---but sheesh.

We have a historical occurrence that was handed down and also is inscribed on some Egyptian pillars etc., of the destruction of one of the advanced civilizations of that period - Atlantis. Atlantis is situated on a gigantic Caldera, in the Atlantic near the present Canary Islands, and at the apex of the three plates, American, African, and Oriental .

It was destroyed by a geologically accepted action of the Eastern Plates being forced down by the American plate causing horrendous seismic activity, which culminated with the submergence of the Atlantis caldera. This took place in only a few days, from the initial movement to the after shocks and completion. It presently lies about 12,000 feet under the Atlantic, while it's southern and eastern zones remained in existence.

The eastern zones formed vast lush lands which contained remnants of the Atlantis civilization. This lush area lies between the present Britain and France. Unfortunately this zone also continued to subside, plus the melting of the ice cap, now places this region under water also.

There was a region off of the coast of Spain which was also covered with water from the ice cap melt, but only to a shallow depth.

This shallow region eventually became the home of a group of wandering people that were believed to be migrating from the present Israel, Jewish origin - the lost tribe? ? not known.

They flourished there and built, or occupied, temples which are now also under shallow water. They called this area "the place of the reeds, white sands, Herons, etc. or simply Aztlan. A corruption of Atlantis.

These people eventually left, for some unknown reason, and crossed to North America then over the ages gradually drifted west then down to Mexico where they established the Aztec empire.

The other survivors in the present Canary islands continued more or less as before, but without the benefit of Atlantis's educated personal, hence no elaborate structures until recently..

So who is up to diving to 12000 ft to check this out ?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Crow]

Hello all

There has been an interesting points made by all on this topic. I must admit I have a tendency to agree with Catusjumper on this one.

However like with all legends we should question the source of the legend and perhaps try to discover what was actually said by Homer in the first place?

And not bog ourselves down with assumptions by interpretations of later dubious translations from a 19Th century academics such as Benjamin Jowett. 20th century scholars criticized particular his renderings (and there were many small errors to be removed in subsequent editions), however it was generally agreed that he had succeeded in making Plato an English classic. Jowett was one theologian among others who added their own religious and moral interpretations from other interpretations of the original script In each retelling the story has got bigger and bigger.

Anyone interested in seeing the original script? You might be supprised how much artistic licence has been added to the story?

Classical Greek was the language of Homer, very different from medevil and Modern Greek. Classical Greek had regional words and dialects infused with it and was influenced culture exchanges with Egypt.

It might be fun to find the words Atlantic and Pillars of Hercules. A crash course in classical Greek anyone?

Crow

 

[Crow]

But perhaps

We should look at this later 15Th century Latin version because it can tell you much. How much the document in translation was influenced by the translator of the day. Many 20Th century scholars relied on the Latin translation. Many details became accepted as fact but not fully understood.

For example most very early maps had no name for Atlantic ocean. Until the late medevil period the name Atlantic was started to be used on maps. A classic Greek perception of the world was very different to what we know today and their perception of the word Atlantic is very different. The oldest known mention of "Atlantic" is in The Histories of Herodotus around 450 BC. The early Greeks believed this ocean to be a gigantic river encircling the world. The term Atlantic means unknown ocean. It was not used as a name because they also used it for the black sea. Which to them was all part of the great river that encircled the world.

As or the pillars of Hercules. We rely on Roman interpretations of Greek history. But again we forget to see Classical Greek interpretation meaning of words Pillars of Hercules. To the Ancient Greeks Pillars of Hercules is term to express gateway to unknown. Hence a gateway to the great river that encircles their world. There is infact two Pillars of Hercules that could be considered portal or gate ways to unknown.

The most well known is the straits of Gibraltar and the other is the Dardanelles strait that enters into the ea of Maramar and into Bosporus into the Black sea. So this idea that this legendary lost civilisation was in the Atlantic Ocean near the Azores is much later perception based on the the Latin interpretations of the 15Th century.

More to come.

Crow

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings amigo Crow and everyone,

I agree in essence with your pointing at the translation leading people into error, and the possibility that the translators themselves put their own twist on the results. I would suggest to obtain the Harvard Classic books for your sources, as they have the original Greek, side by side with the English translation, page by page. You can then check every passage for accuracy or error.

I would also have to respectfully disagree that "Atlantic" appears in Herotodus, the original Greek does not have that word; it has "ATLANTIS"; when naming the ocean, he calls it the sea of the island of Atlas, modern translations (and I include 1500 AD as modern) have converted the "S" to a "C". The pillars of Hercules you will not find either, for the Greek hero was named Herakles. The older name for the pillars was of Brianus, the "hundred handed". As our mutual amigo Cactusjumper is fond of pointing out, history gets changed one word at a time, in this instance it was but a single letter.

I don't know that Homer is quite the one we ought to turn to, for his language predates that of Herodotus and Plato by at least four centuries and is in the form of poems riddled with allegory. A most enjoyable read to be sure, but his Ionic greek language is not the same as that of Herodotus or Plato, whose Attic greek has somewhat different meanings and Doric influences. This is getting to hair splitting of course, and would recommend Homer's works to anyone, but not as reference material on Atlantis. Just a personal opinion - no offense intended.

To Don Jose; while I can not take much exception with your theory, I would only point out that the original story of Atlantis has no volcanic eruption - only a "single day and night of earthquakes and floods" - which would be in keeping with a collapse of land. Similar such events have occurred in relatively recent time, as in Chile in the 1960 quake, or as in the 1964 Alaskan quake in which some 22,000 square miles dropped over five feet. To drop 12,000 feet is not impossible, but I do not know of a similar extreme. The shelf collapses of the Hawaiian islands, Canary islands and several other island groups would be the closest to that extreme drop, and may be the real answer behind the legend.

Wishing you all a very happy and prosperous New Year,
Oroblanco

 

[Crow]

Hello Oroblanco

You make a very good point about Herotodus and you can confirm that by looking at part of the original below. Some academics belive that is a spelling variation of Atlantis and Atlantic being a corruption of one word? but as with the ancient Greeks about not having a word Atlantic? I have taken my ancient Greek from The University of Chicago Library Woodhouse's Greek Dictionary which does have Atlantic meaning sea. It gives 3 different spelling versions. However I must admit not sure of the influences of Ionic and Punic and other dialects over time in translations. This of course is splitting hairs over s and c but an excellent example to highlight that even in Academic papers you will find slightly different interpretations of ancient Greek.

My apologies in a previous post I mentioned Homer when I meant Plato. Must have Homer on the brain

In regards to spelling of Pillars of Hercules yes you are correct in fact there are several spelling versions of Hercules due to regional dialects. but I left the English spelling of Pillars of Hercules not to complicate a matters.

I am in agreement with yourself and Catusjumper that there has been a lot of assumptions made about Atlantis taken from Plato's jumbled collection of poems and writings. I wanted to show part of Plato's document but it a little too big size, so I have to reduce it before I can post it.

But for now I will post part of Herotodus document just as an example on how easy the documents can be mistranslated.

Happy new year to everyone.

Crow

 

[Oroblanco]

My learned friend Crow wrote

but as with the ancient Greeks about not having a word Atlantic?

I do not take that position at all; only that our translators took the liberty of removing Atlantis from Herodotus, replacing it with Atlantic, which has served to help support the skeptics position that "only Plato" is our only source on Atlantis, and the accusation that he invented the very name itself.

Homer does make references to various Titans, and as Atlas was one of the Titans, founder of Atlantis, I mistakenly thought you were suggesting we ought to re-examine his references. Our sources on the Titans are pretty limited in scope and often conflicting, but Hesiod usually is considered first. Unfortunately the Greek myths of the Titans and Olympians, as the historian Diodorus Siculus pointed out, are very much fictionalized and romanticized versions of very ancient events and peoples. Herodotus like Solon had been embarrassed by the Egyptians when recounting the Greek myths, as the Egyptian priests laughed at the fairy tales, saying they had mixed up real things in allegory.

I cannot pick out Ἀτλαντὶς in that VERY cool and interesting papyrus fragment, nor thalassa, which is probably just my poor eyesight but I do take your word on it.

Thank you for the very interesting replies, and I wish you all a very prosperous and Happy New Year,
Oroblanco

 

[Old Dog]

I wish you all a very prosperous and Happy New Year,
Oroblanco

The same to you Roy.

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Thom, I hope that you had a great Christmas too!

Here is that brief passage that includes a reference to Atlantis, in Herodotus



<Herodotus Clio (History, Bk I, 202>

The reference says "thalassa n Atlantis" which is "sea of the island of Atlas" by my poor Greek translating, or sea of Atlantis. <Fifth line of text, first three words>

There was even a book titled "Atlantis" written by Hellanicus of Lesbos, which no longer survives but for a few fragments, including this one:
'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of the Blest and made immortal.'
That compares well with Plato's account where Poseidon mates with Cleito and their son Atlas becomes the ruler of a marvelous land. As Hellanicus was born in Mytilene on the isle of Lesbos in 490 BC and is reputed to have lived to the age of 85, even if he wrote his book in his last year of life, must predate Plato's version.

One could make a case that the references of king Hiram sending an expedition against the Tityans, very likely is related to this tale. Also the Greek myth of a war between the Titans and Olympians, could be a mythicized (not sure that is a word) account of the war between Atlantis and the Greeks led by Athens as suggested by the Egyptians.

Good luck and good hunting Thom and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek; and wishing everyone a very Happy New Year,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Crow]

Hello Again

Here is part of Plato's Republic as you can see, not exactly a complete document that scholars have worked from.

Oroblanco mentioned there was even a book titled "Atlantis" written by Hellanicus of Lesbos, which no longer survives but for a few fragments? Strange enough I have photograph of one of the fragments.

As with all classical surviving Greek Documents nearly all are in a very poor state. And combined with regional dialects it must be a real challenge to make any sense out of them. Perhaps it would take years to get a better idea of the exact message the authors of these fragments wanted to record?

With so many parts missing we must question some of the details that later interper-tations such as medieval Latin and later 19Th century versions with this alleged moral story of Atlantis suddenly grew with more detail with each translation?

Some academics claim that nothing more than legends and folk lore recorded tell a moral. Others say they are interper-tations of historic events recorded through the thoughts and perceptions of the ancient Greek authors? I think that debate will be still raging long after we are all long gone.

Anyway my favorite part is first classic Greek document I posted on Posted Dec 28, 2011 because it is not in the words that inspires humanity it is if look close enough you can see where the author has corrected his spelling mistakes reminding me from over 2000 years ago that I am not the only one to mis spell things and making errors is a most human of traits.

Hope you have enjoyed the posts and happy new years to all.

Crow

 

[Springfield]

.... Some academics claim that nothing more than legends and folk lore recorded tell a moral. ....

This widespread elitist attitude ('It's only a campfire story') is the result of insufficient documentation and the tendency to denigrate those who have preceded us as being less 'advanced' than we are.

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

It seems to me that the mis-translation of names would be the most common of mistakes for converting Classical Greek to English. In truth, I find that to be a minor problem........overall. The names of the people and city do not change the story of the Island or the history that is being related.

I have two of the books from the Loeb Classical Library. They give the English translation on one page and the Classical Greek on the facing page. One of the books is Plato's Timaeus, Critias and I would need to find the other to tell you what it is.

In any case, the base of the story remains unchanged by translation.

Perhaps I don't understand the direction of this conversation. Are we saying that the misspelling of names means the entire account is suspect?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro my esteemed buddy: You posted -->To Don Jose; while I can not take much exception with your theory, I would only point out that the original story of Atlantis has no volcanic eruption - only a "single day and night of earthquakes and floods" - which would be in keeping with a collapse of land
**********************************

HI my barn cleaning cowboy, I don't believe that I have ever suggested anything such as an eruption destroying Aztlan / Atlantis, but rather earth quakes from the tremendous forces generated by the American plate overriding the African and Oriental plates forcing them down, which in turn was complicated by differential / 'rotational' forces between the three plates, being responsible.

Lets assume for the moment - in the horizontal plane principally - that the contact zone of the land masses are pivoting north of the caldera towards each other, submerging this area, while to the south they are opening, possible allowing a bit of a raising of the submerged land masses. This can easily explain the submergence of Aztlan / Atlantis and the rising or maintaining status quot of the Canary etc., islands.

Side issue, the giant caldera was formed uncounted ages in the past. Aztlan / Atlantis owe their creation and end to this volcanic activity.

My other friend Joe, is correct, we are confusing the individual trees with the forest.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Dog]

Don Jose,
Happy 5Th day of Christmas old friend.
Wish you a prosperous New Year as well.

Thom

 

[Arizona Bob]

I wonder- Around 6000AD someone will find a mostly-intact Batman comic. The same back & forth "bantering" will occur as everyone wonders why they can't exactly locate the Bat Cave. Maybe stories like Atlantis were just the oldies version of superhero stories?

 

[Springfield]

.... In any case, the base of the story remains unchanged by translation.

Perhaps I don't understand the direction of this conversation. Are we saying that the misspelling of names means the entire account is suspect? ....

All narratives are altered by perception and translation. Even when remaining within a common language, stories change between the teller, the listener and then down the line. Words, phrases, subtleties, choices, assumptions, additions, deletions, mistakes. The Atlantis myth, allegedly originating from an unnamed priest at Sais, went from Egyptian hieroglyphs to Solon's Greek to Plato's Greek and then to the modern languages. Obviously, an examination of the alleged Egyptian glyphs might be telling, but they have not been recovered.

Other than unsupported theories and speculations, about all we have to work with re Atlantis is the Plato account and a boatload of enigmatic ancient architecture all over the Americas, remnants from an obviously advanced western culture lost to history.

 

[Oroblanco]

Crow wrote

Some academics claim that nothing more than legends and folk lore recorded tell a moral. Others say they are interper-tations of historic events recorded through the thoughts and perceptions of the ancient Greek authors? I think that debate will be still raging long after we are all long gone.

No doubt you are quite correct; however it seems to escape notice in the debate, of the possibility that both cases are true. In ancient cultures it is not uncommon at all, for people to interpret a disaster, whether of natural or man-made origins, as the anger of the "gods" and a sort of "punishment" upon the people for their transgressions. One look at the Old Testament and you can find numerous such examples, even losing a battle to the enemy is clear and unmistakable proof that God was angry to the survivors who wrote the history of it, and made the historical event into a morality play. So this could have been exactly what Plato was attempting to do - to see in that very ancient disaster, which even the sources he had explained as something of natural origins, a lesson in morality direct from the "gods".

Crow also wrote

Anyway my favorite part is first classic Greek document I posted on Posted Dec 28, 2011 because it is not in the words that inspires humanity it is if look close enough you can see where the author has corrected his spelling mistakes reminding me from over 2000 years ago that I am not the only one to mis spell things and making errors is a most human of traits.

I like that too - the way that books were "published" in that day without printing presses, was for a group of scribes to be collected and a text read to them, which they then painstakingly wrote down, up to 50 copies at one time thus being created, if enough scribes could be obtained, and their texts show that they were as human as we are today right down to spelling mistakes.

Cactusjumper wrote

The names of the people and city do not change the story of the Island or the history that is being related.

Hoo boy - a most slippery slope, and yet perhaps the most interesting and rewarding possible route to research this matter. The slippery slope being that it is so easy to get very far from Plato's Atlantis by following up stories that seem to match but have different names, and could be entirely different - but the potential rewards are that we do have very similar stories that very likely are a record of the same set of events. Ignatius Donnely, whose fame for penning "Atlantis the Antediluvian Land" surpassed his service in congress, suggested that the Great Flood of Noah is one and the same with the end of Atlantis. The flood myths are practically universal, which shows the marks of being a human record of some virtually world-wide catastrophic event.

If we look at the state of the world at the time period when Atlantis is supposed to have fallen, the geologists tell us that we were at the end of the last Ice Age; vast areas were covered with glaciers and ice, yet parts of the world were much more temperate; technically we are still in an Ice Age as we still have ice caps and vast sheets of glacier. How this last Ice Age ended has been a matter of much dispute, for long it was held that the ending was very gradual and barely perceptible, yet there is evidence that it was not all gradual and probably did include some rather large flooding events of rapid onset. There are traces of a rudimentary agriculture including cattle herding and a very different climate over large areas, like the Sahara being a vast grassy plains dotted with lakes. Herds of mammoths, mastodons and wooly rhinos were roaming the continents, with man hunting them for sustenance. It is difficult even to picture such a different world. How would any surviving people have recorded a sudden and catastrophic end of the Ice Age, if not in the form of the many flood myths we see today?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Perhaps I don't understand the direction of this conversation. Are we saying that the misspelling of names means the entire account is suspect?

I think the point was whether the debate is now dead, and the fact established that Atlantis never existed, which is not quite the case. The debate is pretty well halted, but neither position is established as a consensus. The spelling issue is a minor point, and I have to thank Crow for bringing attention to Hellanicus, that name used by him which seems to be the same person as Atlas is Lycus. Plato mentioned that he had substituted Greek or Hellenic names in place of the originals, which are only hinted at in Gadeirus, but now with a new name to research perhaps it could lead to more information.

Don Jose - to support the theory of your proposed location, including the 12,000 foot subsidence - what about any evidence that the surface had once been above sea level? Any reports of finding remains of tree stumps or other evidence that it had once been dry land? Thank you in advance,

Wishing you all a very prosperous and Happy New Year,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I wonder why the historians of Athens did not record their epic battle with the people of Atlantis?

Happy New Year to all,

Joe

 

[Crow]

Hello All

Hope you have all had a happy New year.

If one was interested enough to continue the search for Atlantis?

I hope one day some one will fully decipher the Minoan language? It is interesting that we call them Minoans because we do not know their real name? There is little Knowledge of the spoken and written language of the Minoans. Only a small number of records found. Around about 3000 clay tablets have been found with the various Cretan scripts. Clay tablets seem to have been used from around 3000 BC or perhaps earlier?

Until we get a better understanding of their language, it is a very hard road to follow.



But perhaps through Hellenicus we may indeed be lead to some interesting things?

Hellenicus authored works of chronology, geography, and history, particularly concerning Attica, in which he made a distinction between what he saw as Greek mythology from history.

It has been alleged that He also wrote a work mostly lost to history entitled Atlantis (or Atlantis), about the daughter of the Titan Atlas. Some academics think that some of his text may have come from an epic poem called Atlantis? It has been suggested that part of this document which may be the Oxyrhynchus Papyri 11, 1359.

Oxyrhynchus was a city in Upper Egypt. It is also an archaeological site, considered one of the most important ever discovered. For the past 100 years or so, the area around Oxyrhynchus has been continually excavated, yielding an enormous collection of papyrus texts dating from the time of the Ptolemaic and Roman periods of Egyptian history. The Ptolemaic Kingdom was a powerful Hellenistic state, extending from southern Syria in the east, to Cyrene to the west, and south to the frontier with Nubia. Alexandria became the capital city and a center of Greek culture and trade.

For more than 1,000 years, the inhabitants of Oxyrhynchus dumped garbage at a series of sites out in the desert sands beyond the town limits. The area west of the Nile has virtually no rain, so the garbage dumps of Oxyrhynchus were gradually covered with sand and were forgotten for another 1,000 years.

Egypt under the Greeks and Romans was governed bureaucratically and the material at the Oxyrhynchus dumps included vast amounts of paper documents. Accounts, tax returns, census material, invoices, receipts, correspondence on administrative, military, religious, economic, and political matters, certificates and licenses. These documents were periodically cleaned out of government offices, and dumped out in the desert. Ordinary citizens also added their own piles of unwanted paper creating a treasure trove of historical documents. A real dumpster dive of epic historical proportions

Papyrus was a expensive paper that was often reused. Some documents might have government accounts on one side, and a student's text of Homer on the other. The Oxyrhynchus Papyri, therefore, contained a complete record of the life of the town, and of the civilizations and empires of which the town was a part of.

It has been estimated that over 70% of all the literary papyri so far discovered come from Oxyrhynchus, both copies of well-known standard works (many in versions significantly closer to the originals than those that had been transmitted in medieval manuscripts) and previously unknown works by the greatest authors of antiquity.

Of the many thousands of papyri documents excavated from Oxyrhynchus, only about 10% were literary. The rest consisted of public and private documents: codes, edicts, registers, official correspondence, census-returns, tax-assessments, petitions, court-records, sales, leases, wills, bills, accounts, inventories, horoscopes, and private letters.

There are about 100,000 papyrus fragments stored at the Sackler Library, Oxford United Kingdom. Perhaps in this jigsaw of scraps of fragments and the fragments yet to be found, may one day yield more information about Atlantis?

Crow