Rebel - KGC
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COULD be... Atlantis, the MATRIX or paradigm for Utopia/IDEAL Society.
Atlantis
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Oroblanco
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Mastiff4me - muchas gracias for the very kind words, however no I have no sheepskins on the wall, and my bet is YOU are the trapper with a BA and published book! (I do have some published materials but no full book, yet)
Springfield wrote
Ruins are being looked for; corroborating accounts may already exist in the widespread flood "myths" and as to details, consider that the ten kings of Atlantis, can be compared with the ten pre-flood patriarchs, or pre-flood kings of the Egyptians etc. As to eyewitness memoirs, isn't that asking a bit too much, considering the time period predates writing? Can you name any map of any kind that is over 11,000 years old? These may well be very desirable pieces of evidence but seems more than a bit unrealistic.
Cactusjumper wrote
I would say that the arguments AGAINST Atlantis have been reaching into knee-jerk negativism; the tendency to disbelieve something simply because others say it is not so, rather than examining the case. It is always easier to simply say "it isn't so" than to look at things and decide for yourself.
As to your classifying the arguments FOR a real Atlantis as being "based on emotion and imagination, rather than facts and science" - I can see that despite our years of discussion, the numerous pieces of evidence posted including the proof that there ARE massive land subsidences due to earthquakes, even sunken continents that exist, that people of 11,000 years ago were NOT all living in caves and chasing wooly mammoths, you see all that as "emotion and imagination".
I won't waste another moment of your time on the topic, since apparently none of what has been posted amounts to anything but "emotion and imagination". 
Sheesh!
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Springfield wrote
Ruins are being looked for; corroborating accounts may already exist in the widespread flood "myths" and as to details, consider that the ten kings of Atlantis, can be compared with the ten pre-flood patriarchs, or pre-flood kings of the Egyptians etc. As to eyewitness memoirs, isn't that asking a bit too much, considering the time period predates writing? Can you name any map of any kind that is over 11,000 years old? These may well be very desirable pieces of evidence but seems more than a bit unrealistic.
Cactusjumper wrote
I would say that the arguments AGAINST Atlantis have been reaching into knee-jerk negativism; the tendency to disbelieve something simply because others say it is not so, rather than examining the case. It is always easier to simply say "it isn't so" than to look at things and decide for yourself.
As to your classifying the arguments FOR a real Atlantis as being "based on emotion and imagination, rather than facts and science" - I can see that despite our years of discussion, the numerous pieces of evidence posted including the proof that there ARE massive land subsidences due to earthquakes, even sunken continents that exist, that people of 11,000 years ago were NOT all living in caves and chasing wooly mammoths, you see all that as "emotion and imagination".
I won't waste another moment of your time on the topic, since apparently none of what has been posted amounts to anything but "emotion and imagination". Sheesh! Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Sorry Roy,
I admit to wording that a little off base. If I were easy to convince, what would we have to debate.
"I can see that despite our years of discussion, the numerous pieces of evidence posted including the proof that there ARE massive land subsidences due to earthquakes, even sunken continents that exist, that people of 11,000 years ago were NOT all living in caves and chasing wooly mammoths, you see all that as "emotion and imagination".
I agree with everything in the portion I highlighted. However, that does not include the existence of Atlantis.....as written by Plato.
Take care my friend,
Joe
I admit to wording that a little off base. If I were easy to convince, what would we have to debate.
"I can see that despite our years of discussion, the numerous pieces of evidence posted including the proof that there ARE massive land subsidences due to earthquakes, even sunken continents that exist, that people of 11,000 years ago were NOT all living in caves and chasing wooly mammoths, you see all that as "emotion and imagination".
I agree with everything in the portion I highlighted. However, that does not include the existence of Atlantis.....as written by Plato.
Take care my friend,
Joe
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Springfield
Silver Member
I wouldn't say 'unrealistic', but 'not yet established'. I'm not trying to give you a hard time, just pointing out the difficulty in presenting a convincing argument that supports a premise that for all intents and purposes must be taken on faith at this time.
That said, I'll admit that I strongly support the notion of an advanced civilization that dropped from our historical radar sometime prior to, say, 5,000 BCE. When, why and from where they disappeared, we don't know. Maybe it was natural disaster, maybe it was for some other reason. [When and where they originated is even more puzzling.] Regardless, our great ancient civilizations since that date are clearly influenced and tied to the vanished ones. As Manly Hall said, Plato's Kings of Atlantis became the Greek's gods.
One point regarding Plato's Atlantis that's difficult to reconcile is a byproduct resulting from the appearance of several surprisingly accurate world maps during the Renaissance and before. These maps - by the likes of Piri Re'is, Zeno, Finaeus, Benincasa, et al - were obviously copied from unknown earlier sources that preceded these cartographers. The maps show shoreline and continental interior features of the world that seem to defy explanation since they originated before the Age of Discovery (Piri Re'is's Antarctica details are a well-known example). The longitudinal accuracy required to create the charts indicate a working knowledge of spherical trigonometry that the modern world wasn't able to replicate until the 18th century. It's speculated by some that the earliest editions of the charts were themselves salvaged from the Library of Alexandria prior to its final demise early in the first millennium. Be that as it may, here's the point: none of these ancient-origin maps show a large unknown island in the Atlantic Ocean.
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Hi Springfield, you posted __ere's the point: none of these ancient-origin maps show a large unknown island in the Atlantic Ocean.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, obviously Atlantis' demise predated them. This in turn tends to date the maps.
Jose
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So, obviously Atlantis' demise predated them. This in turn tends to date the maps.
Jose
Springfield
Silver Member
That conclusion can be a double-edged sword, RdTTT. What if the original map data pre-dates the alleged subsidence in the Atlantic? Where else would these types of comprehensive maps originated?
Rebel - KGC
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From outer-space...?
Hello Oroblanco
I just made a lengthy post, in reply to your concerns on Solomon’s Gold and History’s Great Treasures. We wish you the best. This gives you information on the general whereabouts of where other great treasures were hidden and protected. Best of luck, in finding the truth.
RW
I just made a lengthy post, in reply to your concerns on Solomon’s Gold and History’s Great Treasures. We wish you the best. This gives you information on the general whereabouts of where other great treasures were hidden and protected. Best of luck, in finding the truth.
RW
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Shaddup springfield, drink yer coffee. don't ask embarrassingly logical questions I mistakenly assumed you and Joe would miss that. Jose
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Oroblanco
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Springfield,
you raised an excellent point with the Piri Reis map that allegedly shows the coastline of Antarctica sans ice. However the Piri Reis map, despite being remarkably accurate showing the coastline of northern South America, is not an exact fit for Antarctica with or without ice. In fact the 600 mile wide Drake passage is missing, the Reis map showing South America directly connected with a land mass that is over 1000 miles too far north. Part of that coastline will mate up with part of Antarctica of course, but remember admiral Reis drew the map in the early 1500s, and the notations tell much of the story on his source materials. For South America a notation explains that some Portuguese sailors were cast ashore there, which coincides with the accidental discovery by Pedro de Cabral. In another spot, Reis noted that some of his source maps predated Alexander the Great, which would put them before 350 BC, or well after the time of Atlantis, even well after the time of the Minoan collapse for that matter. So the islands were long gone by the time Piri Reis made up his remarkable map. I think the map which shows Antarctica without the ice is the Oronteus Finnaeus map (spelling correction welcome, I may not even have the name right) which is harder to explain. For with the Piri Reis map, it is quite possible, even likely, that the ancient maps he used were the state of knowledge in the time of Plato, so would show the coastline of the Americas literally ringing the whole of the western part of the ocean as that was what they believed, almost certainly based on the reports of far-ranging explorers whose exploits have been lost to time.
The map showing the correct Antarctic continent without ice, however, does not depict the northern part of the Atlantic ocean, where the Atlantean island group would have been located. So there is no issue about ancient maps not showing Atlantis, since the maps are either drawn after the time of Atlantis, or in the other case, do not depict the requisite area.
Athanasius Kircher map of Atlantis
Reb buddy - great guess for looking to space for an explanation on the mapping info, but there is no suggestion of such a source in the notations Piri Reis left on his map. Also, it is possible that the coast line of Antarctica may have been free of ice for a short time, coinciding with far reaching explorations being done. A parallel case may be pointed to with the Northwest Passage around North America, which it is now believed was open to sail in summers as recently as the time of Leif Eriksson (around 1000 AD, and the Norse established dairy farms in Greenland shortly after!) so perhaps the sea ice is much younger than the glaciers on land.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Oroblanco
you raised an excellent point with the Piri Reis map that allegedly shows the coastline of Antarctica sans ice. However the Piri Reis map, despite being remarkably accurate showing the coastline of northern South America, is not an exact fit for Antarctica with or without ice. In fact the 600 mile wide Drake passage is missing, the Reis map showing South America directly connected with a land mass that is over 1000 miles too far north. Part of that coastline will mate up with part of Antarctica of course, but remember admiral Reis drew the map in the early 1500s, and the notations tell much of the story on his source materials. For South America a notation explains that some Portuguese sailors were cast ashore there, which coincides with the accidental discovery by Pedro de Cabral. In another spot, Reis noted that some of his source maps predated Alexander the Great, which would put them before 350 BC, or well after the time of Atlantis, even well after the time of the Minoan collapse for that matter. So the islands were long gone by the time Piri Reis made up his remarkable map. I think the map which shows Antarctica without the ice is the Oronteus Finnaeus map (spelling correction welcome, I may not even have the name right) which is harder to explain. For with the Piri Reis map, it is quite possible, even likely, that the ancient maps he used were the state of knowledge in the time of Plato, so would show the coastline of the Americas literally ringing the whole of the western part of the ocean as that was what they believed, almost certainly based on the reports of far-ranging explorers whose exploits have been lost to time.
The map showing the correct Antarctic continent without ice, however, does not depict the northern part of the Atlantic ocean, where the Atlantean island group would have been located. So there is no issue about ancient maps not showing Atlantis, since the maps are either drawn after the time of Atlantis, or in the other case, do not depict the requisite area.
Athanasius Kircher map of Atlantis
Reb buddy - great guess for looking to space for an explanation on the mapping info, but there is no suggestion of such a source in the notations Piri Reis left on his map. Also, it is possible that the coast line of Antarctica may have been free of ice for a short time, coinciding with far reaching explorations being done. A parallel case may be pointed to with the Northwest Passage around North America, which it is now believed was open to sail in summers as recently as the time of Leif Eriksson (around 1000 AD, and the Norse established dairy farms in Greenland shortly after!) so perhaps the sea ice is much younger than the glaciers on land.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Oroblanco
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Rebel - KGC
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"Far-ranging explorers"... FAR OUT! LOL! Oro, I DO have that book, and others on "old maps"; it IS a "mystery". I STILL think Solon, the Greek ("google" him) was "setting up" a VISION of a PERFECT City/society & I have ALWAYS seen it as the CITY of Atlantis, the "IDEAL" with LOTS of symbolism (10 rings, surrounding the MAIN section, etc.). NO DOUBT that MANY cities/societies created (or tried to) the IDEAL... OR! Atlantis was a "TIME/SPACE" Traveler from our DISTANT FUTURE, put in our DISTANT PAST... dunno. AND! Plato was a WONDERFUL Philosopher/story-teller; my "Fave" from him is "THE CAVE" story (the REAL/UNREAL "Life"). We live in a MULTI-VERSE of 10 dimensions ("confirmed" by SCIENCE, tho "they are looking at 11, now. HA!) HH! May you find the Treasures that you "seek"!
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Springfield
Silver Member
Oro, the ancient maps be the only knowledge sources available to us re Atlantis unless archaeological discoveries are made. If PirI Re'is and several others had access to ancient maps 500-700 years ago, we can only speculate and hope that those sources are still available - somewhere. Re the ca Ice Age advanced civilization topic, these charts - whoever has them - may be the only factual game in town. Why the original ancient maps have not resurfaced since the Renaissance is a mystery unto itself.
By the way, Kircher's famous map is questionable evidence IMO because he directly cites Plato as its inspiration.
By the way, Kircher's famous map is questionable evidence IMO because he directly cites Plato as its inspiration.
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Springfield
Silver Member
Plato and others may have used the Atlantis model to speculate on man's nature and potential in analogous ways. If so, maybe he was trying to compare 'modern man' with some great preceding civilization. We don't know.
Your space/time thoughts are certainly in play, IMO. In my mind, the great predecessors were flesh/blood humans - or hybrids - who were way ahead of us in knowledge and technology. Start with Enki and Enlil.
Rebel - KGC
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YEP! "Deep"! VERY "Deep"!
Rebel - KGC
Gold Member
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"Turn" EAST, now... to the Indus Valley of India; WOW! COSMIC! Nuclear War in India, "waaayyy back, then"! "Google" The FIRST Nuclear War, and a COVERUP of HISTORICAL Proportions! Atlantis is mentioned...
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Rebel - KGC
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Maps are in the Archives of the Roman Catholic Church in Rome...
Springfield
Silver Member
Yeah, I resisted mentioning them, but there may be others in possession of iñformation that are also stonewalling. On one hand, the Vatican can be considered the greatest organized crime ring the world has known for perpetrating such a massive fraud on so many vulnerable humans for so long; on the other hand, they have also provided pretty effective crowd control in the western world for a couple millennia. Who benefits?
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Springfield,
Do you know what we would have without organized religion?.............Anarchy!
On the other hand, you get the exact same thing without Chocolate.
A little known fact is that the highest expense for many of the missions in Mexico was.........Chocolate. 
Take care,
Joe
Do you know what we would have without organized religion?.............Anarchy!
On the other hand, you get the exact same thing without Chocolate.
A little known fact is that the highest expense for many of the missions in Mexico was.........Chocolate. Take care,
Joe
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Springfield
Silver Member
Springfield, Do you know what we would have without organized religion?.............Anarchy! On the other hand, you get the exact same thing without Chocolate.
Exactly. People want to be told what to do. The trouble with anarchy is that there's nobody in charge to tell the folks what to do. Next thing you know, the chocolate supply gets cut off. And then what? More anarchy!
cactusjumper
Gold Member
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