Battle of Medina ... try it again

[Baggins]

Will be keeping close watch on this thread!
Baggins

 

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[Dimeman]

Just thinking about this..........so when you guys do find the "possible" battleground site......what next
Do you dig up and catalog some of the finds for a few hours Or contact THC and/or the local archaeology chapter so they can come in with a team and take over the excavation. Will they want the detectorists help in locating items??

 

[pegleglooker]

Just thinking about this..........so when you guys do find the "possible" battleground site......what next
Do you dig up and catalog some of the finds for a few hours Or contact THC and/or the local archaeology chapter so they can come in with a team and take over the excavation. Will they want the detectorists help in locating items??

One could only hope......

PLL

 

[Joe(TX)]

............BATTLE OF MEDINA HUNT..............this has never been a FINDER's KEEPER'S event........................all of the artifacts related to the battle have been turned over to the landowners.................first of all the actual site needs to be found,..........second......enough artifacts should be dug up to verify that it is the site........third .....call in one of the State Archeology Associations to take over and document the site........these days they use detectorists to help locate the artifacts.......not 100% sure on exactly how they do it but do know that detectors and detectorist were used in the last few years to find artifacts from the Battle of San Jacinto and the Mexican Army artifacts from their Retreat after San Jacinto..................The recovered artifacts would wind up in a State Museum so everyone can enjoy them.................for more info contact Dan......since he is the Leader of this whole finding expedition..........................this is one of the largest battle sites that has not been located in the world.........I have no problems of getting no monetary rewards just the satisfaction of helping to find such an Historic Site.................Joe

 

[texan connection]

For 1 thing if the sight is found and confirmined the artifacts would be taken from the owner by the Texas Goverment should the sight be deemened as Important to archelogist as it has been portrayed by Dan, (I dont know how important it is to Texas historians) But do know what Texas goverment does to historical artifacts they deem as valuable. (See Parde Island)
The land owner would have to be a pretty patient guy that is as (or more) intrested in Texas history as anyone and willing to give up a few rights to his own land to make this happen.

I seriously Doubt there would be a excavation as Big as little bighorn, as the public attention is just not there.

As significant as this is to me and others as a Part Of TEXAS history (not anglo, hispanic, tejano, or Indian), I also doubt that it would be considered as Important as the Battle of San Jacinto, the Alamo , or even Gonzales, By Texas Historians.
Sorry thats just the facts as I see them. I could be wrong, and certainly I am game for the search for NO other reason except to help find another piece of Texas's RICH History during its quest to be free from Spain (and then Later Mexico).

The truth is there were many Texas uprisings agienst spain durng this time, and many more than "7" flags over Texas. But this was the biggest and most costly battle In Texas as far as lives lost.

All that being said. Im down for the next hunt!

 

[Dimeman]

For 1 thing if the sight is found and confirmined the artifacts would be taken from the owner by the Texas Goverment should the sight be deemened as Important to archelogist as it has been portrayed by Dan, (I dont know how important it is to Texas historians) But do know what Texas goverment does to historical artifacts they deem as valuable. (See Parde Island)
The land owner would have to be a pretty patient guy that is as (or more) intrested in Texas history as anyone and willing to give up a few rights to his own land to make this happen.

I seriously Doubt there would be a excavation as Big as little bighorn, as the public attention is just not there.

As significant as this is to me and others as a Part Of TEXAS history (not anglo, hispanic, tejano, or Indian), I also doubt that it would be considered as Important as the Battle of San Jacinto, the Alamo , or even Gonzales, By Texas Historians.
Sorry thats just the facts as I see them. I could be wrong, and certainly I am game for the search for NO other reason except to help find another piece of Texas's RICH History during its quest to be free from Spain (and then Later Mexico).

The truth is there were many Texas uprisings agienst spain durng this time, and many more than "7" flags over Texas. But this was the biggest and most costly battle In Texas as far as lives lost.

All that being said. Im down for the next hunt!

I know all those who are volunteering to help find and dig are only in it for the history..not monatary gain.
I read that any finds that are found on private owned land would be going to the landowner. But.....if the actual battle site is located and the state called in to research the area, would the state claim any part of the land as historic??And if they put up a Historic Marker,would that mean no more digging( or any type of farming) on it without THC's permission.

 

[texan connection]

Possibly.
Tell me whens the last time you saw a treasure chest full of coins and such in a musem? the fact is they get sold (or stold) if of monetary value, and /or get stored in attick not unlike a Detectorist finds.

Any historical musem in texas and probaly in The USA is no diffrent than the individual collector. Try to donat something to a musem and see what you have to do, they demand all rights to it and if they want to burn it they reserve that right also. Belive me Iv experienced it.


The thing is everything will end up back in the dirt someday no matter how dear to you, or the world.
So you decided what you want to do with what you find.

http://www.nps.gov/pais/historyculture/1554-1.htm

 

[Joe(TX)]

..................TO UNDERSTAND THIS SITUATION BETTER.......I would strongly advise getting the book.............SEA OF MUD: The Retreat of the Mexican Army After San Jacinto, An Archeological Investigation By Gregg Dimmick........................Now Gregg is an Pediatrican in Wharton, Texas who having the empty nest syndrome decided that he was going to find the Retreat Path of the Mexican Army and maybe find some of their campsites......................Now this was similar to the Battle of the Medina in the fact that their was documentation that the event happened.......... the problem was that all of the local markers were in the wrong place or their was no markers at all due to over time the sites were lost!! ......................Gregg got his initial leads from farmers/ranchers who would come into his practise and tell him of finds found farming .....I think that this was a Cannonball or Grapeshot..................Well this discovery got him to searching but he only found a lot of modern trash .......so back to the library for research.........while he was doing this thru the grapevine he heard that the neighbor (of the person who found the original Cannonball) found another Cannonball while they was digging a pond..................this discovery had Gregg on site soon and he shortly found more Grapeshot and musket parts ......this site turned out to be one of the Mexican Campsites on their retreat out of Texas...........Thru the help of several local Archeology Associations he was able to excavate the site plus found most of the retreat route..............basicly the Mexican Army got bogged down in the marsh type areas inbetween the San Bernard river, the Middle Bernard River and the West Bernard River........................Now when I say excavate they are using more modern techniques such as using a metal detector ........and documenting the artifacts such as how deep and taking pictures of the artifacts in situ......................soon Greg and his friends had a larger collection of Mexican Army Artifacts than any of the Texas State Museums combined!! The collection now is on display in the Alamo, the San Jacinto Monument Museum, in the Spanish Governor's Palace (San Antonio) and in the Wharton County Museum(?).................................Now back to the facts of the Battke Battle of Medina most of the prisoners were shot or hung on site and all of their personal belongings were ransacked by the Spanish Loyalists Forces.....so I really do not expect anyone to find a chest full of gold or silver peso's...........................I due expect for the site to give up a boat load of Cannonballs , Musketballs and other battle artifacts.................although the landowners are now getting the finds .............when the big discovery comes.......the State will come in and basicly claim it all................the land will be open for future archeological digs.......also the Archeology Associations welcome all volunteers especially those that know how to use a detector....................HH........Joe

 

[Dimeman]

.................although the landowners are now getting the finds .............when the big discovery comes.......the State will come in and basicly claim it all................the land will be open for future archeological digs.......also the Archeology Associations welcome all volunteers especially those that know how to use a detector....................HH........Joe

If the battle site is found on private land and the state comes in and claims it, then any future digs have to be ok'ed by them through a application for a permit to dig on the location. So the landowner, loses partial ownership of the land he bought, since it would be a Texas Historical location, and can't dig or build on his land for any purpose, unless he gets a special permit ,ok'ed by the state.

If this is correct, how can we work, or begin to start to get the antiquites laws changed?

 

[Joe(TX)]

.........I think that you are missing the point.........this site will be of enormous value ..........the State of Texas will probably wind up buying the land and making this into a Texas State Historical Park.........but who knows..............from the book....Sea of Mud..........a few of the Mexican Army Campsites have been located and documented on private land and as a far as I know this has not affected the landowners in anyway!!.....Anyway most if not all of the landowners so far have been very cooperative and understanding..................they know the importance of cherishing our past and it needs to be preserved!! ............I think that the understanding here is not to treat this site like a normal hunting site........................HH.....................Joe

 

[Dimeman]

You say I am missing the point.....??

...............They can always make the exact historical site into a subdivision retention pond like this historic Texas spot....



http://www.civilwaralbum.com/misc4/tomball1.htm


How is this particular civil war historic site being cherished and preserved as a Confederate Powder Mill site?? By a concrete marker almost 1/4 mile away from the actual site.

How do they cherish and preserve "artifacts" if they don't dig them up and let the public see them
There are many well known sites that haven't had any type of excavations done to recover and preserve thousands of items in the ground and in the waters all around Texas.

By THC and other archaeology groups telling us a "mission statement", and then carrying it out, are 2 different things. (JMHO)

I do seriously hope the Medina battle site is found

 

[Joe(TX)]

........It is a shame about the Confederate Mill Site but to forecast that that will happen to the Battle of Medina Battlesite ..............is kinda jumping the gun...........I hope not .......but the future is not clear..............And we need to be a little bit more positive................. just cause some bad things have happened lately to our hobby does not mean it will happen again....and again......and again.........Anyway I know that you have been dealing with a lot of stubborn beauocrats in the Houston area...........hopefully that does not happen in this Medina site.............HH........Joe

 

[Dimeman]

........It is a shame about the Confederate Mill Site but to forecast that that will happen to the Battle of Medina Battlesite ..............is kinda jumping the gun...........I hope not .......but the future is not clear..............And we need to be a little bit more positive................. just cause some bad things have happened lately to our hobby does not mean it will happen again....and again......and again.........Anyway I know that you have been dealing with a lot of stubborn beauocrats in the Houston area...........hopefully that does not happen in this Medina site.............HH........Joe

I hope you are correct.............. that the bad things happening lately in this hobby, won't happen again and again.

Good luck to all the volunteers ,on finding the Medina battle-site!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MoSi]

With the landowners' permission, I have been able to return to this site and do more searching. Since it has been too hot for human detectorists, I finally found a detecting buddy that didn't mind the heat. My buddy's name is Mollie and below are some of the pictures taken of her in action and some of the previous finds.

Moe

 

[texan connection]

Good stuff man

 

[TexasDigger1]

Good finds Moe. I like that flask and is that a small chalice? You did good. HH John

 

[MoSi]

Good finds Moe. I like that flask and is that a small chalice? You did good. HH John

John----I can only take credit for finding the fork with US and medical insignia from this photo. The rest were previously found by the landowner. I agree the flask is beautiful. The small chalice is gold colored inside. Landowner seems to think it's gold. Last weekend I found a tire and rim buried, tabs, beer cans, and other odds and ends. My goal is to find another cannon ball like the one found by the previous landowner.
Moe

 

[TiredIron]

It has to of cooled off down there in Texas by now. What the plan to resume the search for the Medina Battle Site?
Just curious.

TiredIron

 

[MoSi]

It has to of cooled off down there in Texas by now. What the plan to resume the search for the Medina Battle Site?
Just curious.

TiredIron

TiredIron,
San Antonio area has now cooled off and today has been raining all day. We are now waiting word from our leader, Dan Arellano to when and where the next search will take place. Also November , December, and part of January is deer hunting season around here and we sure wouldn't want detectorists with headphones be mistaken for deer, so might have to wait a little longer. As for me I'm still going by myself to the above site, still looking for artifacts. Just recently, the present owner of the property tracked down the wife of the deceased previous owner and confirmed the fact that her husband did indeed find a cannon ball on the property. After 196 years in sandy terrain these artifacts are probably deeper than our detectors will detect, so I have purchased a detector that will go deeper and as soon as the weather permits I will put it to the test.
Moe

 

[Joe(TX)]

.....Moe....tell the Landowner that I'll give him $10.00 for the Santa Anna Battlefield Axe......and another $5.00 for the Texas Toothpick Knife (actually looks like a short machete!!)...........LOL.......I'm not afraid of no Deer Hunters....we can wear bright Orange Vests.....tell Dan.....let's do in Jan..............HH......Joe