Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

[Skrimpy]

Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Does anyone know if there are copyrights on historical maps like Beers and Property Maps? As far as I knew they were public domain which is why you can find them at most libraries correct? Here is why I ask, and somebody stop me if I am about to do something I souldn't. I don't need the attention.

Went to the county library near my mothers place to see if I could drum up some potentials for digging and detecting on the 1866 and 1908 Beers Atlas so I have someplace to hunt when I visit her town. I figured what the h-ll I will bring the digital along so I don't have to make photocopies. Boy was I chewed out when I took the first photo. "NO DIGITAL CAMERAS!!!", came bellowing out from behind the hired help's desk. I, with my preservationist attitude, asked "Why not? I am preserving the document by making a copy, and the flash doesn't hurt the original". The response was quick. "Because the Historical Society sells copies". So now my ire has been raised. I get home and speak with a bottle digger (who posted his bottle page on Tnet not too long ago...he's selling his collection). He steps my anger up a notch with this particular hysterical society. "Well", he says, "There are not too many places left to dig in this town. The historical society, towns, cities, and villages have pretty much put a stop to it." Basically, the historical society, in their oh so elite, infinite wisdom has decided that THEY should reserve the right to ALL of the dumps in that area...see "BottleDiggers" tirade about a local NH archeologist pulling the same BS on www.bottledigger.com). The hysterical society has convinced some of the municipalities that:
1. Digging the dumps is not environmentally sound...ie all of that stuff that has been turned to DIRT since the 1850s is going to pollute the river (which is as polluted or more than the Hudson to begin with) and
2. These bottles are of enough historical significance that they should lay claim to them and preserve them for our children. (ie let them rot for another 100 years until they get the funding to dig them.

Now I am really angry. So I have decided that I will do the library a favor and save them the bother of posting "No Digital Cameras" signs in the library. The state library ALLOWS digital photography and guess what? They have the 1866 and 1908 Beers maps of the particular county in question! Ha-Ha-Ha-Ha!!! Now I plan to go to the state library, take the photos and distribute them on the internet for FREE. Anyone want a copy? Maybe I will just start posting the images here once I have enough of them.
Elitist P.O.S. B@$^@rds.

 

[texan connection]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

That being said, No telling how many historical items have been undocumented by guys like us because they are afraid that some historical society is gonna take em, It seems to me if they were intrested in preserving history they would encourage treasure hunting so they could document the finds, then offer fair market value if legaly collected. But I reckon that they just want the item to sell so they can have money for another function.

 

[jeff of pa]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

I find that most Historical Societies are Very Helpfull.

Just like aywhere though,
the Bad apples do exist.

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Elitists are everywhere, not just in the historical societies. If the elitists were in charge in 1849, there would have been no Gold Rush. If the elitists had been in control in 1860s, there would have been no Silver State (NV). If the elitists had been in charge, there would have been no uranium boom in the SW during the 1950s.

How many other exciting finds would have been unfound, if left to the elitists? We would not have the location of the Titanic, the Atocha, the Andrea Doria - all found by private companies.

Somebody needs to enlighten the lady at the library - about his misguided ideas and about her working for the taxpayers and not the historical society.

Get in good with the Historical Society - donate something you dug up, but don't tell them that until they put your name on it and give you kudos for it. Then lay it on them - tell them you dug it and would dig many more things for them if you could only get to those dumps. LOL Turn the tables on them!

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

That being said, No telling how many historical items have been undocumented by guys like us because they are afraid that some historical society is gonna take em, It seems to me if they were intrested in preserving history they would encourage treasure hunting so they could document the finds, then offer fair market value if legaly collected. But I reckon that they just want the item to sell so they can have money for another function.

I have a frightful feeling you pegged this one on the nose. They knew exaclty what we were looking at and why we were looking at them. Dirty jeans, t-shirts, flannel jackets, and wool caps. There aint no other reason we'd be looking at old property maps. We could have been genealogists but really didn't look the part. We looked like we were going to get dirty. We might as well have been holding ash covered shovels.

 

[Functional]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

That being said, No telling how many historical items have been undocumented by guys like us because they are afraid that some historical society is gonna take em, It seems to me if they were intrested in preserving history they would encourage treasure hunting so they could document the finds, then offer fair market value if legaly collected. But I reckon that they just want the item to sell so they can have money for another function.

I have a frightful feeling you pegged this one on the nose. They knew exaclty what we were looking at and why we were looking at them. Dirty jeans, t-shirts, flannel jackets, and wool caps. There aint no other reason we'd be looking at old property maps. We could have been genealogists but really didn't look the part. We looked like we were going to get dirty. We might as well have been holding ash covered shovels.

What I hate about historical societies, is that more often than not, artifacts are left alone to deteriorate through corrosion, until theres nothing left worth recovering. And, the idea that things like bottles, will stay there indefinitely without being damaged or broken by frost heaves and ice just seems a little retarded and irresponsible.


Skrimpy, you might find this page useful:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~clifflamere/Home/Aids.htm
Theres some maps and other information there that are in your general area.

To bad your not in Vermont, they have free online access to Beers Maps here:
http://www.old-maps.com/vermont/vt-beers_county_maps.htm

But, you might like this site also:
http://www.davidrumsey.com/
The Rumsey Historical Maps are in Google Earth, which means "get them while you can" as Google will likely swallow them up soon. From what I understand, they have "viewers" that you need to install in order to see the maps. I didn't install one as they don't cover Canada.

I've found a few other links for your area through Google that have, by using various keywords. If you click this link, theres abot 33 hits and some have old maps:
http://www.google.ca/search?num=100...+map"+new+york+online+-beer&btnG=Search&meta=

Good luck!

F.

 

[gold fish]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

That being said, No telling how many historical items have been undocumented by guys like us because they are afraid that some historical society is gonna take em, It seems to me if they were intrested in preserving history they would encourage treasure hunting so they could document the finds, then offer fair market value if legaly collected. But I reckon that they just want the item to sell so they can have money for another function.

That is dead on, like I said earlier, our local society is better about it than almost any I have heard of.

Undug relics are just rotting garbage.

A coin in the ground is just dirt waiting to happen.

 

[Functional]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

I neglected to mention:

As of: "January 1, 1978
Effective date of principal provisions of the 1976 copyright law. The term of protection for works created on or after this date consists of the life of the author and 50 years after the author's death. Numerous other provisions modernized the law."

"Since 1870, the Copyright Office has registered more than 30,000,000 claims to copyright and mask works and provided many millions of deposits (including books, serials, motion pictures, music, sound recordings, maps, prints, pictures, and computer works) to the collections of the Library of Congress."

I don't know if that means a map from 1869 was ever copyright, or not?

The above quotes were taken from:
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1a.html

F.

 

[cheese]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

My historical society (of which I'm a member) isn't like that, thank goodnes. What's got me is the bottle dump thing. Why do they care if it gets dug? Heck, half the time, the city opens up areas like that to development all of a sudden, and it all gets crushed by bulldozers. I've seen this happen lots, and I mean lots, of times. The only surviving remains are those removed by collectors like us. I just rescued a lot of relics and a few coins from a spot just before they got destroyed by the bulldozers in a lot in town. If I hadn't, they'd be destroyed. But now, they are safe, and probably going to be displayed for everyone's enjoyment at the museum of history. Whether the elitists like it or not, there would be very little treasure or related knowledge if it weren't for the guys who go out there and get dirty. The only ones willing to get dirty are the ones who are passionate enough about it to act. That would be people like us.

 

[Functional]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

What's got me is the bottle dump thing. Why do they care if it gets dug?

I'm sure they don't. Unfortunately, I think the Historical Society got involved in this rant because someone wasn't able to line their pockets with trinkets.

Whether the elitists like it or not, there would be very little treasure or related knowledge if it weren't for the guys who go out there and get dirty. The only ones willing to get dirty are the ones who are passionate enough about it to act. That would be people like us.

Absolutely correct. The term "elitists" was coined by yet another disgruntled "treasure hunter" in their rant trying to discredit an organization that is made up mostly of volunteers and members such as yourself (and me) that do get dirty, and contribute to the community. Overall, I would say that MDer's hurt themselves more by leaving open holes in the parks than anything a Historical Society could ever do to them.

I wonder who "someone" is.

From a personal perspective, I've yet to see a volunteer, or member of any historical society actually out in the field getting down and dirty. I'm certain there are some and I think they do a disservice to history and the public in general, by not wanting to work "with" MDer's, instead being condescending towards them, (which I've personally seen). The same is true of the few archeologists I've encountered.

Instead of expending any significant amount of thought over how unfair an institutions policy may be, perhaps time would be better spent attempting to change those policies to the benifit of all concerned. I wish we, in both Canada and the U.S. of A., had similar laws to that of the UK, so that when we do find something old that would be of interest to the history of the nation, we would have the option to be paid for it, or have it returned.

I don't know if there are individual laws for each U.S. state relating to MDer's, or if there is one federal law, but I'm sure its better in some ways than here in Canada. Sure I can MD most anywhere on crown land, or private land if I have permission. But if I find an old coin here, or anything thats over 75 years old, I'm supposed to report it as an archeological find. Like I'm going to spend my money on what I'm certain would be a long arduous process, over finding a 1931 penny? I don't think so. On the other hand, if I found several items, including coins at a location that I thought would be a good historical find, I'd be fine with reporting it.

I'm just stating my personal opinions here, without any intention of starting a net argument. As I've been known to say on occasion, (a phrase I ran across somewhere on the web); "Arguing on the internet, is like being in the special olympics. Even if you win, your still retarded."

Have a nice day!

F.

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Here in the USA, anything 50 years of age or older is not to be "collected" by any private citizen (that is such a misnomer these days). It is to be reported to the proper authorities ...so they can run over it with their pickup trucks, because they never listen to what we say.

I am a volunteer at a county archives. Some of the other volunteers are bottle diggers. They have no problem with what I do because they do it, too. But there is one member/volunteer who is dead set against us. That woman has a son who is an archaeologist. Surprise! NOT!

Frankly, the historical societies and the other non-governmental groups do themselves a disservice when they alienate any segment of society. They can be "killed" with kindness, however, with a few little one-on-one conversations and a small donation - made quite dramatically.

My biggest problem is with the woman who worked at the library that day. She should be terminated or released if a volunteer.

 

[Functional]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Here in the USA, anything 50 years of age or older is not to be "collected" by any private citizen (that is such a misnomer these days). It is to be reported to the proper authorities ...so they can run over it with their pickup trucks, because they never listen to what we say.

Maybe if you incorporate you'll be allowed to collect everything you find? Make yourself into a one person charitable archelogical society, (and get tax breaks for all your expenses).

I doubt very much that if I told the "authorities" here, of a significant find, they would even be able to find the place. And chances are, they would take months, or years to actually investigate.

I am a volunteer at a county archives. Some of the other volunteers are bottle diggers. They have no problem with what I do because they do it, too. But there is one member/volunteer who is dead set against us. That woman has a son who is an archaeologist. Surprise! NOT!

I've even encountered "attitude" over the web when trying to get plans for a device similar to a ground penetrating radar from an amateur archeological society. They don't want to give the plans out to "just anybody".

Frankly, the historical societies and the other non-governmental groups do themselves a disservice when they alienate any segment of society. They can be "killed" with kindness, however, with a few little one-on-one conversations and a small donation - made quite dramatically.

It seems like our small museum here has no problem with people taking an interest and taking digital pictures of anything they have. But the historical society varies drastically from one volunteer to the next. I usually know, or can find out, who's volunteering on which days, so I know when I can go and get help instead of BS.

My biggest problem is with the woman who worked at the library that day. She should be terminated or released if a volunteer.

To date, I haven't had any problems with our local public librarys. I've taken digital pictures of old maps, usually relating to prospecting, but I like to explore when I'm out in areas that have a history relating to the gold rush here.

Most of the places I used to go are so off the beaten track, that nobody has been there in 50 years or more. Its been about 20 years since I "lost" my collection and I'm just at the point now, where I have the time and some limited resources to get back into exploring new old places, (and some old old places I've been before). Back in the 80's I had a real nice collection with mostly prospecting and railroad artifacts, (I had what I thought was a real good landlord, who I made the mistake of trusting). When I left one summer to go on an extended prospecting trip, (two months), I returned to find he had sold the place and everything was gone.

When I read some of the stories on here, I think of how I miss hiking down those old narrow guage railway tracks that are so old that, when they cross over a stream on the side of the mountain, theres nothing but two slim rails hanging suspended in mid air. I wish I had pictures of some of those places to post on here. Hopefully I'll have some to post later this summer, along with some gold, or artifacts.

F.

 

[diamondjim]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Quick note about copyrights...

if map is 1870 it IS public domain, however, if the map you were photographing was THEIR reprinting of the map, it is copyrighted. You can copy the original, but not copy someone else's copy.

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Wow. I didn't expect this thread to attract so much attention. Bottom line here is that THIS PARTICULAR hysterical society pulls some serious B.S. Not ALL historical societies are like this. I have heard good and bad things about particular historical societies so it can't be any stretch of the imagination that I ran into a bad one. Look at the NYS Archives. I have been there many, many, many times and they are absolutely wonderful, intelligent, helpful people. If you ask a question they will point you in the direction of 10 different sources to find the information you are looking for. You can make copies at the copy rate to pay for paper and ink. Heck they will even make the copies for you at no additional cost. They have even let me make digital copies with my own camera at no cost at all. They help preserve documents and artifacts to educate people as to the significance of what they are looking at and help them understand what they should do to preserve the knowledge learned from it. Heck I've even told them that I was a THer and they wished me good luck. The problem is that some individuals, and many of them belong to historical societies (but not all historical societies have them) have preconceived notions about artifacts not belonging in a private collection so they try to impose their will on other members and the community. These people ARE elitists. They need to go home, display their useless basketweaving PhDs on their home wall rather than at public library, catch the next episode of Star Trek, and leave helping people at the library to the ones that want to help.

 

[TreasureTales]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

Well said, Skrimpy. And I agree with your last post completely.

 

[Skrimpy]

Re: Beers Atlas, "Hysterical" Societies, and Librarys

I'm sure they don't. Unfortunately, I think the Historical Society got involved in this rant because someone wasn't able to line their pockets with trinkets.

In this case, "lining my pockets with 'trinkets' " was not what fueled my spite, and I was informed of the historical societies contribution to the municipalities regs by a local digger, not just because I felt like giving them a kick for strong arming library patrons (although this would make me feel a little better). What I wanted to do was line my pockets with a great historical map without a hassle. The dump thing just added fuel to the fire. I didn't mean to offend you because you are a member of historical societies. Like I said, some of them are good and some of them are bad. I just hope yours aren't part of the Document and Map Mafia too.



-Here in the USA, anything 50 years of age or older is not to be "collected" by any private citizen (that is such a misnomer these
-days). It is to be reported to the proper authorities ...so they can run over it with their pickup trucks, because they never listen
-to what we say.

Funny. This is exactly what antique dealers businesses revolve around. People collecting items older than 50 years old. As long as the dealer is paying the taxes on the sale nobody cares. They can sell things older than 200 years old to a collector without anybody throwing up red flags. I think the spirit of laws like this really is in regard to people raiding places like national historic battlefields and prevent theft from museums, although if you think about it, there has to be hundreds of thousands of musket balls in places like Saratoga National Battlefield that are going to be there until they rot to dust, so why is it such a problem to collect them? Because some moron bookworm in Washington thinks that leaving them in the ground to rot where they can't be seen preserves the history of the site.