Belief in Dowsing kills another 125 people

[Carl-NC]

More car bombs went off in Baghdad today, killing 125. I heard this on NPR driving home:

In Parliament, lawmakers demanded to know why the government hasn't improved security after the previous bombings. Hassan al-Shimmery, a member of Parliament from the Fadheela Party, said the government deserves a big share of the blame for the attacks.

He charged that corrupt officials in the security ministries — defense and interior — put personal profit before the safety of the public. Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The "explosive detection devices" are, of coarse, the dowsing rods mentioned here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...85million-useless-bomb-detectors-Britain.html

For most people, belief in pseudoscience gets them a lighter wallet. For these people, belief in pseudoscience got them killed.

- Carl

 

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[aarthrj3811]

Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The American experts statement was “ that he believes “. A believe is not Proof…,.Art

 

[An Ri Rua]

Carl, that is very sad news. But for a supposed scientifically-minded man, your use of words is very poor.

Were there 125 people collectively holding dowsing rods, en masse, that failed to detect a bomb and then got blown up? What a strange spectacle?? Are you sure you have your facts right now Carl? I would say that the guys tasked with detecting the bombs are alive and well and some other poor schmucks are dead. What do you reckon? Not being pedantic but your arguments are laced with emotionalism and very little scientific rigour or intellectual curiosity. If they were useless at detecting bombs, and got through that security line, then why would a lunatic detonate there? Your logic is very strange. Very emotionally blurred, I think.

This is now a bone that you have picked up and are vociferously chewing on.

The Vatican publicly commended a parish priest from Switzerland, Abbé Mermet, for informational dowsing skills (map dowsing, which must be a real curve-ball to you) and this apostolic blessing flew in the face of catholic dogma at the time with regards to so-called witchcraft. Taking the religiosity out of it for a moment, but concentrating purely on the politics of social power, that was an enormous step for adversaries of dowsing to take. The reasons were crystal clear. The man had legendary, long-proven ability to find water and minerals across the world from his table in a small room. He had performed great service for the Church, the world's richest real-estate owner.

Are there scammer dowsers and scammer LRL makers? No doubt! Are there useless metal detectors with tuning controls that make no difference? Undoubtedly. Would we blame metal detecting as an activity for the deaths of soldiers using insufficient quality equipment? No.

In order for your intellect to be respected, one must articulate like an adult, not just with simple generalisms that get none of us anywhere. No thinking sceptic should accept generalisations without first checking for themselves. That's what I have done. I am naturely sceptical in the questioning sense. But not a sceptic. No thank you. More inquisitive than cynical. And that's what the greatest sceptics have been. No doubt we would differ as to who we think are /were the greatest sceptical minds.

I'm off to put my dowsing rods in a locked gun cabinet.....................

 

[aarthrj3811]

Gee Carl….I have an old box of shot gun shells just laying here doing nothing. I took the powder out of one shell and put in my baiting compartment on one of my rods. I had my wife throw a complete shell onto the front yard that is covered with about 6 inches of snow. I had no problem finding that shell except my feet got a little wet. So…My conclusion is that I can find gun powder with my rods…Art

 

[An Ri Rua]

Additionally Carl, I would like to meet you halfway by saying that many dowsers and LRLers would be sceptical of claims and products that they see. But that refreshing questioning nature does not in and of itself lead to the generalised conclusion that dowsing does not work, that LRLS do not work.

For a glimpse into the views of dowsers in the home country of where the device is manufactured, see http://www.britishdowsers.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1649

One quote worth noting from there is the reference to "an article entitled Dowsing for Mines by Keith Chamberlain which was published in Dowsing Today, June 2007, p.19. It describes Keith's experiences in the Royal Engineers clearing mines with a dowsing pendulum in Aden. Eye-popping stuff:

"Keith Chamberlain wrote:Bets were taken on how long we would survive, nobody bet on more than two hours. Worryingly the instructor stayed behind, instead of returning to Headquarters, presumably to give better instruction to the next team after we had departed with a bang.

..
It is really easy to focus when an error can be career ending, and in the first day we cleared 12 mines designed to catch civilians supplying the Army base. This was something that WE were doing, not a machine, us. We had no idea how or why it was working but it was working with a vengeance."

British army engineers are well known for having strong dowsing knowledge. It has been used officially for finding water and also tested in the capacity that you see here, for mine clearing.

No, I don't have a double-blind test for you Carl. Although there's plenty of research on dowsing contained here if you care to chase it up http://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html

Yes, the price of those machines is outrageous. That is the real "outrageous" part of the whole story for me. Also worth noting is the fact that the discovery of Saddam in a bolthole was constantly put down to a dowser. That may have ignited passions in superstitious people, which can happen to people in dire times.

That still does not mean we can disparage and discount dowsing, nor LRLs. The proof is in the testing for each of us. I am happy with my results from dowsing and very happy with the proofs I have read. I do not need your fascist big brother hand attempting to hold mine.

Dowsing does not kill people. People kill people. Period.

 

[boogeyman]

I'd put more faith in the ads the guys making LRLs have than ANYTHING the media says. (Just my personal opinion)

Now, I"ve got a question. If dowsing doesn't work, Why doesn't it?

Well, I've jumped in and probably started a riot, but all I hear the skeptics say is NO NO NO it doesn't work. Why doesn't it work? If dowsing or witching devices have been in use for hundreds of years wouldn't it seem logical they'd have been thrown out a hundred years ago? Can anyone out there tell me why dowsing devices won't work.

Granted, there are crooks, and bums selling bogus stuff, but isn't that true to everything we buy? Seems there are people selling super duper ring a ding ding detectors that will find the Holy Grail these days. Hmm..... I wonder how many old timers said those new fangled metal detector things couldn't find things in the ground.

In Nam, L rods were used, worked good. Locating water mains when a couple $3000+ locators couldn't worked.
So, please explain why dowsing won't work.

 

[Carl-NC]

Now, I"ve got a question. If dowsing doesn't work, Why doesn't it?

You may be asking the wrong question.

Why doesn't astrology work?
Why doesn't homeopathy work?
Why doesn't self-levitation work?

They just don't. The "why" list can be infinite, and completely irrelevant.

If dowsing or witching devices have been in use for hundreds of years wouldn't it seem logical they'd have been thrown out a hundred years ago?

As well many other follies. Astrology is still around. So are superstitions.

So, please explain why dowsing won't work.

JREF now has a forum. You might want to try this question over there, and see what you get.

 

[boogeyman]

You quoted me, but apparently didn't read my question. Let's try again.

If dowsing doesn't work, why doesn't it work.

 

[Carl-NC]

You quoted me, but apparently didn't read my question. Let's try again.

If dowsing doesn't work, why doesn't it work.

I read the question, but it's just not answerable. It's like asking, "Why can't I levitate myself?" Or, "Why can't I foretell the winning Power Ball numbers?"

Just cain't.

 

[boogeyman]

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work But it doesn't work?

I'm talking strictly dowsing, not astrology or fortune telling etc. Can any of the skeptics out there tell me straight out why dowsing doesn't work?

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work. I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

 

[Carl-NC]

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work

Asking "Why doesn't it work?" is different than asking "Is there evidence it doesn't work?" Yes, there is evidence that it doesn't work. Also, evidence that it doesn't work is not the same as proof that it doesn't work. Don't confuse them.

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work.

I generally suggest that folks start with "Water Witching, USA" by Vogt & Hyman. Ray Hyman has done a lot of research on dowsing. Ellis' "The Divining Rod" is also a good read. A variety of dowsing tests have been performed over the years, and dowsing has not fared very well. The largest, Betz's "Scheunen" test of over 500 experienced dowsers, had results no better than chance. Australia has tracked well drilling results, and dowsers do worse than hydrogeologists.

I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

That's how science works. When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. Always. If someone says, "I can detect a gold coin up to 1 mile away," fine... show me... in a convincing way. Don't ask me to prove you can't do it. That's like me saying, "I can levitate myself... can you provide evidence that I can't do this?"

If you want a really good 10-minute read on pseudoscience, I highly recommend this timeless paper:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf

 

[hung]

Hmm....... We assume dowsing doesn't work, but we can't offer any sound documentation or hard scientific proof it doesn't work

Asking "Why doesn't it work?" is different than asking "Is there evidence it doesn't work?" Yes, there is evidence that it doesn't work. Also, evidence that it doesn't work is not the same as proof that it doesn't work. Don't confuse them.

Carl, don't take me the wrong way. I'd like to hear any one of the skeptics who adamantly state that dowsing doesn't/can't work show me solid scientific evidence why it doesn't work.

I generally suggest that folks start with "Water Witching, USA" by Vogt & Hyman. Ray Hyman has done a lot of research on dowsing. Ellis' "The Divining Rod" is also a good read. A variety of dowsing tests have been performed over the years, and dowsing has not fared very well. The largest, Betz's "Scheunen" test of over 500 experienced dowsers, had results no better than chance. Australia has tracked well drilling results, and dowsers do worse than hydrogeologists.

I get the feeling there's a double standard here. The skeptical people almost demand proof dowsing works, but I"ve yet to see any of them present evidence it doesn't.

That's how science works. When someone makes a claim, the burden of proof is on them. Always. If someone says, "I can detect a gold coin up to 1 mile away," fine... show me... in a convincing way. Don't ask me to prove you can't do it. That's like me saying, "I can levitate myself... can you provide evidence that I can't do this?"

If you want a really good 10-minute read on pseudoscience, I highly recommend this timeless paper:

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bashpseu.pdf

I would answer Carl in this thread but I feel An Ri Rua, Art, Boogeyman and Dell have done a good job already. Case closed.
Amazing how he still don't know what science is...

 

[Ted Groves]

More car bombs went off in Baghdad today, killing 125. I heard this on NPR driving home:

In Parliament, lawmakers demanded to know why the government hasn't improved security after the previous bombings. Hassan al-Shimmery, a member of Parliament from the Fadheela Party, said the government deserves a big share of the blame for the attacks.

He charged that corrupt officials in the security ministries — defense and interior — put personal profit before the safety of the public. Shimmery went on to charge that officials went against the advice of American experts and spent millions of dollars on explosive detection devices that don’t work.

The "explosive detection devices" are, of coarse, the dowsing rods mentioned here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...85million-useless-bomb-detectors-Britain.html

For most people, belief in pseudoscience gets them a lighter wallet. For these people, belief in pseudoscience got them killed.

- Carl

It is indeed a very sad situation, when those in charge of purchasing devices of this nature, turn out to be so ill-informed, and as a result cost so many innocent folks injury or death.

As was so aptly noted in another forum; "This is not just fraud, its culpable involvement in negligent homicide..."

"That’s what junk science does. Its not simply a bit of harmless new age hippy nonsense, as some suppose, it kills people and it does so unnecessarily and without any thought for the consequences.

This is one junk science fraud where action needs to be taken, and taken now before any more people die as a result of British companies selling dowsing rods as so-called explosives detectors."

Anyone who stoops low enough to outwardly defend either the British company responsible for this tragedy, or defends the purchasers of such scams are really showing their own lack of intelligence and support for the act of negligent homicide.

 

[aarthrj3811]

It looks like a Dowsing Rod so it has to be a Dowsing Device which everybody know will not work…Good Logic Ted…..Art

 

[Ted Groves]

It looks like a Dowsing Rod so it has to be a Dowsing Device which everybody know will not work…Good Logic Ted…..Art

Apparently, "everybody" did not include the soldier (or security personnel) using the device to scan for explosives, which then cost so many lives.

 

[aarthrj3811]

BEEP…BEEP>>BEEP…Non responsive answer…Try again please ,,Art

 

[Ted Groves]

I would like to say the skeptics are disingenuous with this phony emotional plea. Fact is the ADE651 has saved many lives and has detected many bombs and cars filled with explosives. So are the skeptics really trying to save lives? I don't think so. I think they are trying to save face by using more phony logic, what I call dirty lawyer tricks.

Must be awfully inconvenient for you to read my posts... but read them you are. Thanks.

Yeah, I bought a little book the other day called "Dirty Lawyer Tricks". Funny thing is, it was not a lot different than the stuff I've heard you say.

Tell you what, Mike. There are a lot of unexploded ordinance over in those Eastern countries, if I buy you one of those ADxxx LRL bomb locators, will you go over armed just with that contraption and start locating some of those bombs so we can get them out of the ground?

Might want to make sure your Will is in order before you go.

 

[Ted Groves]

I just read the ADE 651 had detected 16,000 bombs including 700 car bombs.

I just read where the ADE651 was responsible for hundreds of deaths and probably thousands of injuries.

 

[Ted Groves]

I just have to wonder why anyone would try to remove the ADE651 which has been proven effective. Is this some kind of terrorist organization or sympathizers? I realize there are many people who would love to see the Iraq war a failure, but that is way wrong to use it as an excuse to save face.

I thought I was on your Iggy List.

For you to defend an LRL contraption that is obviously responsible for the tragic loss of many human lives is not borderline sick. That is sick.

 

[An Ri Rua]

The world audience would consider the ADE_651 an LRL. But the OP decides that just because he wishes to call it dowsing, that makes it so.

"Discussion is limited to simple, inexpensive devices and techniques.
No electronic LRL discussions please."

Why are the rules not being adhered to?