Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

[PikesPeakCharlie]

Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

I'm still in shock My brother & I driving down the street , see a large roll away dumpster sitting in front of an old building ,,,, turned around to take a look ,,,,,, Wow !!!!!!!!!!! this thing was full of antique papers,books,just all kinds of stuff. I will try to make a long story short. With permission from the job supervisor we each carried away 2 box's of stuff. Digging through it yesterday, I found I had 3 old books on the history of America/United States. #1 Copyright 1883 ,"America its history & biography. #2 copyright 1895 ,"History of the United States". #3 Copyright 1910(3rd printing,the first was 1899) "A History of the United States". What great books with just tons of illustrations.
The main focus of this story is the 1883 book, what a treasure trove of our history & many treasure/detecting leads, Anyway flipping through the pages I came across a piece of paper stuck in between the pages,,,,reading it my jaw dropped ,,, was I looking at Buffalo Bills signature from Deadwood Dakota 1865, Flipped a few more pages and was looking at Kit Carson's signature In my mind *&^&*%$# What did I just find !!!!! Now ,I guess its time to do some research,was Buffalo Bill in Deadwood in 1865 ?? are they real OH BOY A NEW TREASURE HUNT We just never know what will pop up next !! If you do not look ,,, You will never find. HH to all

 

[PikesPeakCharlie]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Some more

 

[Felinepeachy]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

WOW That is amazing!!!

 

[emesis]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

I might be wrong, but Deadwood wasn't founded until the 1870's. So I don't know how that will affect your research.

wally

 

[PikesPeakCharlie]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Didn't like the scan's hope these photo's are better

 

[curbdiggercarl57]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Those autographs are amazing! Plus, that looks to be a really early signing for Buffalo Bill.
Keep us posted on the research,
Carl

Loving the snow, are ya?

Adding this note, is the B.B. autograph 1865, or 1868?
1865 might be too early, wasn't until 1866-67 that he supposedly got his nickname.
Did see one for sale for $4000.00
Yeah Baby!

 

[PikesPeakCharlie]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

I might be wrong, but Deadwood wasn't founded until the 1870's. So I don't know how that will affect your research.

wally

No your not wrong.Deadwood was founded in the 1870s. I did find that he was discharged as a private from Co H 7th Kansas Calvary in 1865. The research goes on

 

[PikesPeakCharlie]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Those autographs are amazing! Plus, that looks to be a really early signing for Buffalo Bill.
Keep us posted on the research,
Carl

Loving the snow, are ya?

Adding this note, is the B.B. autograph 1865, or 1868?
1865 might be too early, wasn't until 1866-67 that he supposedly got his nickname.
Did see one for sale for $4000.00
Yeah Baby!

Howdy Carl, NO !!!!! i'm not lovin the snow,this last one is going to put frost in the ground up here,which means my season is pretty much over , no more show & tell,unless we can get in the ground again

 

[HuntNdig]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

very interesting! Keep us posted!

 

[civilman1]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Good eye Charlie Keep us posted on those autograph!! Some of those pic's,if loose,would look great in a frame.Nice Job

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

I agree that Deadwood wasn't even thought of yet in 1865. Like emesis said. I think Custer's assistance in opening SD and Deadwood is what got the Souix so pissed off at him personally. As I remember reading, his first couple of exploraton runs were against Treaty and against orders.

PS: The 5 of 1865 doesn't look at all like the 8. Otherwise, it looks like Miss Waltmann was a busy young lady and enjoyed Western Heros. But, in 1865, was BB even a celebrity? Like Pikes Peak Charlie said, he was a private, and didn't kill a ton of buffalos until the railroad came along in 1867/68. Kit had been the man since the 1840s or earlier, but Bill? Not thinking so.
That 1865 just doesn't make sense at all.

 

[birdman]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Man keep us informed on your research. This could be the find of your life! Very intriguing.

 

[BILL96]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

That is an interesting signature and a true mystery well worth following up.
But just a couple of thoughts,
In 1865 he was only 19, between Sept 1864 and Sept 1865 he was in the Army, mostly in Kansas.
William Cody didn't recieve the nickname "Buffalo Bill until 1867-1868 when he managed to kill 4280 buffalo in an 18 month period to help feed the railroad workers.
Of all his signatures that I have seen, this one does not look similer, it just does not look like any of his others.
Virtually every one of his surviving signatures are a double signature, something like this
WF Cody
Buffalo Bill
Please keep us informed of your research.

Bill

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

I thought the signature looked "well educated" but I haven't had time to look up the education of BB. ALmost femine well educated. Way too many flourishes, but I have nothing to base that on. Kit seems to look good, as far as gut feelings go, but I have to read about him. I wonder if, because of his times, he was able to be called literate.

 

[Tigger]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

They look like the right size for an autograph book. Is there anything written on the back? Are there any more, of not-so-famous people? Do any of the books have a Waltman(n) inscription in them?

The script is old fashioned, the "Deadwood, Dakota" is more realistic than if someone had said South, or North Dakota, so though I'm not sure on the signatures, it's not obviously faked. Plus, her name is spelled differently in the second one.

So put it them in acid free paper, out of the light, and do some more investigating!!
Tigger

 

[BILL96]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

This just gets stranger, I have been studing the Kit Carson signature and I just do not believe that It belongs to the
Christopher "Kit" Carson that we all think about. Nothing about it compares to any of his known signatures. The K is wrong,the T is wrong, the C is very wrong, everything about it is just wrong, so who is this guy?

Bill

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Miss Waltman may have been a pretender! It would be pretty easy to be important at the party when nobody knew what the real autograph looked like. ALso, the fact that it says "Dakota" is good, but again, not in 1865. I don't think there was any interest in the area until rumors of gold started to surface, brought out or at least verified by Custer's expedition. Makes you wonder why he took civilian gold miners and gold pans with him if gold was a complete surprise.

 

[mlw67]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

These are some cool finds, but I'm going to have to go with the growing consensus: these are unfortunately both forgeries.

My reasoning:

1. In 1865, Buffalo Bill was not Buffalo Bill, and Deadwood wasn't Deadwood. (Deadwood got it's start when gold was discovered in 1874--before that it was indian territory)

2. Neither signature matches known examples.

3. There are enough similarities in the writing of both cards to have me believe that the same person wrote both of them. (slant and style, small "a", small "b", small "s", usage of the verb "remember", etc)

Occasionally period forgeries will have their own value, although I doubt that is the case with these. I know George Washington period forgeries are still worth thousands, especially if you can identify it as one of the known forger's work. Look for one of those in between those pages!

 

[baywalker]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

According the book "bad boys of the black hills: by B arbara Fifer bill was never in deadwood . and kit carson wasn't even mentioned .

Jonnie

 

[Rich in Central PA]

Re: Buffalo Bill & Kit Carson + 3 Historys of America Show up in a dumpster

Googled Buffalo Bill signatures, and here is what I got on the first hit. IMO, does NOT look like BB signature. I wish it was, however, take a look and see for yourself.............

http://houseofdeception.com/Buffalo_Bill's_Writing.html

I'm sorry to say Christopher "Kit" Carson signature looks wrong also. CC was a Brigadier General in the Civil War in 1865. Look...................

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6206376