Butch Cassidy & The Hole In The Wall Gang, Valpairaso Chili 1902?

[ISmellGold]

 

[ISmellGold]

View attachment 2239126

This photo was taken in San Francisco around 1901

Same Crew?
Interesting, how early San Francisco had a pretty good size population of Chileans, specifically from the Valpairaso, area of Chili.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

This photo was taken in San Francisco around 1901
View attachment 2239276
Same Crew?

I dunno, the guy in the middle doesn't have the same belt buckle. Employee turnover?

 

[ISmellGold]

I dunno, the guy in the middle doesn't have the same belt buckle. Employee turnover?

Obviously its mostly conjecture and speculation. The photos are pretty blurry. Be my guess is that some of the crew didn't make the journey.
They must of had someone or a few guys in the crew that spoke pretty fluent spanish to even attempt a move like that, though.
Pretty sure there are a few more pictures around a Valpairaso lighthouse that have the "Sundance Kid" and "Etta Place" Pictured.

I actually came across a few postcards from around the time of the 1907 Earthquake that seem to be from "Etta Place" while just messing around on ebay, doing research on another subject. Apparently "Place" liked to send postcards.😁

interesting story.

 

[Red-Coat]

I don't believe so. That picture was captioned “The Morrión lighthouse and its workers” when it was published in ‘Pacifico’ magazine in 1916. The lighthouse is in the treacherous Strait of Magellan, near the Tortuoso Pass (Paso Tortuoso) on Cerro Morrión in Southern Chile.

 

[ISmellGold]

I don't believe so. That picture was captioned “The Morrión lighthouse and its workers” when it was published in ‘Pacifico’ magazine in 1916. The lighthouse is in the treacherous Strait of Magellan, near the Tortuoso Pass (Paso Tortuoso) on Cerro Morrión in Southern Chile.

View attachment 2239278

5 Gringos that far South? The guy all the way on the right definetely looks like "Harvey Logan"?

"Logan" Pictured standing 2nd right.

 

[Red-Coat]

5 Gringos that far South? The guy all the way on the right definetely looks like "Harvey Logan"?

"Logan" Pictured standing 2nd right.

I have no reason to doubt the caption. And you can identify 5 gringos from such a poor quality picture? Where does your belief that it's Butch and his gang come from?

 

[ISmellGold]

I have no reason to doubt the caption. And you can identify 5 gringos from such a poor quality picture? Where does your belief that it's Butch and his gang come from?

Since when does it take 5 guys to man a Lighthouse?
How do I know its them?
I SMELL GOLD
🤣

 

[russau]

5 Gringos that far South? The guy all the way on the right definetely looks like "Harvey Logan"?
View attachment 2239280
"Logan" Pictured standing 2nd right.

That's a pretty common picture that's been around for some time !

 

[ISmellGold]

That's a pretty common picture that's been around for some time !

Yeah, From all the research, pretty sure the"Gang" headed down to Valpairaso, Chile from San Francisco right after the Mint job. I think they had a connection with someone that assigned Light House work back in the day.
I have come across a few photos besides this one. I have seen a couple of photos of "Sundance & "Etta" standing in front of a lighthouse. I have lost the photos over time, tho.

 

[ISmellGold]

Yeah, From all the research, pretty sure the"Gang" headed down to Valpairaso, Chile from San Francisco right after the Mint job. I think they had a connection with someone that assigned Light House work back in the day.
I have come across a few photos besides this one. I have seen a couple of photos of "Sundance & "Etta" standing in front of a lighthouse. I have lost the photos over time, tho.

Interesting Video, apparently some people are saying "Sundance" made it back to the States and wasn't killed in South America? I have heard stories of the same with "Butch Cassidy".

If that was the gang in South America, maybe it wasn't "Butch & Sundance" that were gun downed in South America?

 

[ISmellGold]

Hey Timestalkers free on Youtube



Looks like an edited cut though. With a few key scenes and a song missing.
Too bad, way better uncut.
Worth a watch for free though
Probably a better free cut

 

[russau]

If that was their gang down there , it was afully arogant of them to drop their gaurd and allow them selves to be trapped in a gun fight ! You would think that they would have had lookout's watching their backs for such a BAD situation . Just maybe "Butch" or one of them would have gotten away ! It just stands to reason that they would have tried to escape rather than slug it out with that many armed gaurds ! Why would they have dropped their gaurd ? Gringo's would definatly be a standout amoungst all those Mexican people !

 

[ISmellGold]

If that was their gang down there , it was afully arogant of them to drop their gaurd and allow them selves to be trapped in a gun fight ! You would think that they would have had lookout's watching their backs for such a BAD situation . Just maybe "Butch" or one of them would have gotten away ! It just stands to reason that they would have tried to escape rather than slug it out with that many armed gaurds ! Why would they have dropped their gaurd ? Gringo's would definatly be a standout amoungst all those Mexican people !

Yeah, I think "gang" was probably a pretty loose term back in the day. Most likely a lot of times somebody would come up with a scheme or plan and pitch it to other members of a relatively known group, and guys would either join in or walk if it was too risky or didn't seem right.
I think "Sundance" and possibly "Butch" had an inside with some pretty powerful guys from England, so they were not necessarily going to do something completely off the wall or Risky unless really forced too. While others in the Gang might be willing to try anything? Maybe looking for one big score before a return to America?

 

[russau]

Very possible situation !

 

[Red-Coat]

The Flannan Isle lighthouse Mystery
Interesting


I could swear the Pictures I saw Of Butch & Sundance were at that Lighthouse.
Crazy
I guess it was supposedly designed by the the same guy?
This mystery is going to be interesting. Probably take some time though.
View attachment 2258124
Looks like the English liked to supply their Lighthouses with "Amercan Assets" from the Civil War Period.
🤣 I guess they didn't like their hideout.🤣
"F*ck this!! I ain't staying here for Christmas"

I know you're only kidding, but there’s no similarity at all really. The Flannan lighthouse was constructed as a 75 feet tall masonry tower topped with a balcony and rotating lantern (designed by David Alan Stevenson with the assistance of his brother, Charles Alexander Stevenson). The Morrión lighthouse was a simple 13 feet tall cast iron tower with a non-rotating beacon (designed by George Slight).

The guys in the picture of the Flannan lighthouse are James Ducat (Principal Keeper), Thomas Marshall (Assistant Keeper), Donald McArthur (Occasional Keeper), and Robert Muirhead (Superintendent). Muirhead was the official who was sent to investigate the disappearance of the other three.

 

[Red-Coat]

Not sure what you’re on about here. There is no evidence for any of the gang being photographed at a Chilean lighthouse.

The very first picture you posted of the workers standing outside a lighthouse (on a thread titled: “Butch Cassidy & The Hole In The Wall Gang, Valpairaso Chili 1902?” is, rather misleadingly, the Morrión Lighthouse which is over 1300 miles from Valparaiso. If you’ve lost the pictures of another lighthouse, why didn’t you just say so from the outset?

The additional speculation about the completely unconnected Flannan Lighthouse in Scotland is just plain nonsense. Here’s a better picture of the crew (excluding Superintendent Muirhead at the far right). They’re reliably identified, left to right, as Thomas Marshall, Donald McArthur (sometimes appearing as MacArthur in historical documents), and James Ducat.

Thomas Marshall was from Seabank, near Stranraer in Scotland. He’s recorded in the 1881 census as a 10-year-old living with his family (with head of household as John Marshall), so born in 1870 or 1871. Lighthouse Board records also document him as being 25 when he was first registered in 1896. He was a seaman prior to becoming a lighthouse keeper, and unmarried, but survived by at least one brother and sister after the tragedy.

Donald McArthur was from Breasclete on the Isle of Lewis in Scotland and was born in 1860. He had been a mariner and a soldier, but served as an Occasional (supernumerary) Lightkeeper and was drafted in as temporary cover in late 1900 at Flannan after 1st Assistant William Ross went on sick leave. He was survived by his wife and two children after the tragedy.

James Ducat was born in Inverkeilor, Scotland on 11 August 1856 to a ploughman also named James Ducat and Louisa Ducat (née Guild). He married Mary Grierson in 1882 in Edinburgh and they had three children. He served in a number of lighthouses after entering the service in 1878, and the 1881 census records him living at No.2 Inchkeith Light (on a small island in the middle of the Firth of Forth in Scotland) with his sister and niece. Mary Grierson is recorded at No.1, living with her uncle Robert Grierson. So, James apparently married ‘the girl next door.’

 

[Red-Coat]

Meh, Have you ever heard of records being Doctored? I have seen phots of "John Tunstall" in a confederate officers uniform, you wont see any records of that anywhere. The English were very particular about there involvement in the "Civil War" and spying around that time. There are inconsistencies everywhere, both altered photos and records. In all actuality England was the Confederates biggest benefactor during the "Civil War" no one talks about it though.

In fact that photo looks a little altered to me. Looks like 3 different photos made into one, 3rd man looks like he was added to photo for sure. He is at a different distance from the camera, looks like about 2 feet farther back than the man next to him.🤣 You have to look closely.🤣

Come on 3 guys suddenly disappear off an Island Lighthouse? Obviously they bailed on the assignment.

What utter nonsense!


Firstly:

The American civil war ended in 1865. The Flannan lighthouse photograph was taken in early December 1900, some 35 years after the American Civil War ended, and not long before the three men disappeared. The original has been in the Northern Lighthouse Board’s (NLB) archival records since that date.

The lighthouse was first noted to be non-operational by a passing ship on 15 December but the weather was so bad that a tender ship sent to investigate was unable to reach the island until 26 December. Superintendent Robert Muirhead of the NLB (the guy at the right of the group of four) finally arrived on 29 December to conduct the official investigation. He had been the recruiter for the crew and knew all three of them personally.

The island had an east and west landing. Muirhead reported that the east landing was intact, but that there was considerable recent storm damage to the west landing, which he described as "difficult to believe unless actually seen."

A storage box at over 100 feet above sea level had been smashed open and its contents strewn around; the iron railings on the path were bent over; the cable-hauled iron railway alongside the path (to facilitate transport of supplies up the steep gradient from the landing place) had been wrenched out of its concrete foundations; a large rock weighing more than a ton had been displaced; on the cliff top, more than 200 feet above sea level, the turf had been ripped away as far as 30 feet from the edge.

Although the exact circumstances will remain a mystery, Muirhead concluded that the men had been attempting to prevent the loss of the mooring ropes, landing ropes and other equipment from the storage box during a particularly heavy storm and had likely been swept away by a heavy wave crashing into the rock face above them, creating a wall of water that cascaded down onto them. Only McArthur’s oilskins were still in the lighthouse, suggesting that he had probably rushed out to assist the other two with little preparation for the conditions.

So, you’re suggesting some kind of conspiratorial cover up that would need alteration of the official 1881 census records and other documented birth/death/marriage genealogy, the participation of the NLB in faking a photograph, and the persuasion of the many friends and relatives of the men who perished to conceal the truth? As well as a remote Scottish island lighthouse being a good place to base spies in relation to a war in America that had long ended. That’s cloud-cuckoo land.

The island on which the lighthouse sits (Eilean Mòr) has only been safely accessible by boat between 20-30 days per year, leading the NLB to construct a helipad in 1971.


Secondly:

There are no authentic photographs in existence of the English-born merchant-turned- rancher John Henry Tunstall in a confederate uniform. Any such claimed pictures are either fake, or mistaken identity. Tunstall didn’t even arrive in America until February 1876, eleven years after the war ended. Also, he was born on 6 March 1853, so he would only have been 12 years old when the war ended.


Thirdly:

It’s incorrect to say “no one talks about it” in relation to Britain’s support for the Confederacy during the American Civil War unless you mean for the average man on the street.

Although Britain maintained an official position of neutrality, our industrial economy was heavily reliant on ‘Southern cotton’ and our government allowed many private companies to build warships and supply munitions to the South to support their war effort. Companies such as Fraser, Trenholm & Co. in Liverpool made enormous contributions to the Confederate cause, acting as their European bank; assisting in floating loans; organising the building of ships such as the commerce-destroyer, Alabama; financing the supply of armaments in return for cotton; and participating in blockade-running... in return for cotton.

Although the South hoped the dependency on cotton would persuade Britain to actively participate on their side, Lincoln’s threat to treat intervention as a declaration of war, coupled with strong British abolitionist (anti-slavery) sentiment, kept us out of the conflict in a direct sense.

All of that is still widely discussed by historians and there’s no shortage of readily available information in official and company records.

 

[Red-Coat]

View attachment 2258253
1860
Look at that photo, Prince of Whales, meeting with Robert E. Lee, I would love to see a unredacted photo of the others standing there. Coincidentallly all their faces have been blacked out?🤣 I would be willing to bet that one of those faces blacked out is Jefferson Davis, himself. President of the Confederacy.

More errant nonsense!

The photograph was taken on 17 September 1860 when Prince Albert Edward (the future King Edward VII) visited Prospect Point on the American side of Niagara Falls during his North American tour.

Among the men pictured are: the Duke of Newcastle (Henry Pelham-Clinton); The Earl of St. Germans (Edward Eliot); Major-General Robert Bruce (the Prince's governor); Dr. Henry Acland (his physician); and other personal secretaries and British naval officers including Commodore George Henry Seymour. Neither Robert E. Lee nor Jefferson Davis were present, nor was there any reason why they would be.

The dark, featureless faces are not intentionally blacked out. The picture was taken by photographer Platt Babbitt as a stereoscopic photographic glass plate, which still exists, along with primary prints from it in various archives. Over time, the silver-based emulsions have oxidised. The faces were also not particularly distinct to begin with because, in that era, the emulsions available struggled to cope with the kind of contrast arising from the backdrop being a large expanse of water brightly lit by sunlight. The exposure favoured that sunlit area, casting some of the faces into deep shadow.

Of the primary prints still surviving, the Brock University Library in Ontario holds what is probably the least degraded copy, in which the faces can be seen more clearly.

Are you just making this stuff up and trolling?

 

[Red-Coat]

Oh dear! You seem to know very little about your own country’s history, and even less about mine.

Firstly:

The man second from right in the Niagara picture of the royal entourage is not Robert E. Lee. He’s identified as Major Teasdale (Christopher Charles Teasdale), who served as an equerry to the Prince of Wales during his North American tour.

President James Buchanan was the official host of the 1860 American tour, having written to Queen Victoria suggesting that if the Prince cared to extend his upcoming visit to Canada with a visit to the United States, then he would be most welcome. Buchanan personally accompanied him on a visit to Mount Vernon, but not the excursion to Niagara. The Prince stayed with, and was feted by, various prominent Americans but never met Lee who was, in any case, on active service in the US Cavalry at Fort Mason in Texas, serving as temporary commander of the Department of Texas at the time.


Secondly:

Our flag, properly known as the ‘Union Flag’, combines the crosses/saltires of the three countries united under one Sovereign in 1801. The elements have much older heraldic origins as the crosses or saltires of the patron saints St. George (England), St. Andrew (Scotland) and St. Patrick (Ireland). Crosses are ‘+’ shaped and saltires are ‘X’ shaped.

The ‘Confederate flag’ (the blue saltire with white stars on a red field) was designed by congressman William Porcher Miles, originally as a military battle flag, later becoming a symbol of heritage. Miles was asked by Confederate General P.G.T. Beauregard to come up with a new, highly distinguishable flag to replace the existing Confederacy ‘Stars and Bars’ flag (three horizontal stripes and a blue canton with stars) which was being confused in the heavy smoke of battle with the ‘Stars and Stripes’ flag used by the Union army (especially when hanging limply from a flagstaff)

Miles drew inspiration from a South Carolina secession flag that featured a blue St. George’s cross, but changed it to a blue saltire after complaints that the cross held religious significance.


Thirdly:

The motives for Booth’s assassination of Lincoln are pretty well documented and Britain had no proven involvement in the plotting or the act itself. The only (indirect) British connection was that the American Confederate spy John Surratt, implicated as one of the plotters, fled to Britain via Canada under a false name and hid out in lodgings at the Catholic Church of the Holy Cross in Liverpool after the assassination.

When news of Lincoln’s death reached Britain, there was widespread shock, public grief, formal diplomatic mourning and governmental sympathy across Britain. His death served to cement the growing shift of British elites away from Booth’s ideals of white supremacy and slavery.


You’re in cloud cuckoo land again.