Cache Hunting

les

Full Member
Jan 24, 2007
107
8
Southern Illinois
Detector(s) used
Whites Tr 66 Goldmaster,,Whites Tr Coinmaster 4,,Fisher 220x,,, WHITES 6000 DI SERIES 3,,WHITES 6000 DI series 2,,,Whites 6000d,,,whites Sl PRO,,, Whites XLT,, Whites dfx,, Quickdraw2,coinmaster 4900
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Hi Guys:
Last Summer I was told of a Cache in Johnson County Illinois, I went to this Site By Horseback, It's kinda back in the boonies, When I got there all I knew was that a Old Fellow Lived on the place for years, he owned a Orchard & several businesses in Town, This Gentleman Raised his Grandson, & his Grandson told this Story to Neighbors ,Which are Friends of mine, They took me To the Old house site, The House is gone now, just a few foundation Blocks left there with tons of Flowers Growing wildly everywhere, A old Fence row leads off downhill into the woods,it ends at a large tree.
Here is What I was Told, Each time The ole timer had to go into town for something, he would go off down the hill from the house,stand at the edge of the Orchard for a few minutes looking around,,he would then disappear off into the woods down the hill for a bit, He would return with Cash, When they came home from town ,,the same thing,, down the hill, looked around,,disappeared down the hill,came back empty handed!!!,,,The Grandson told this himself,,He lived with his grandpaw & saw this himself,,This Ole timers Grandson is around 68 years old & is still hunting for his Grandfathers Stash, He shows up there about once or twice a year driving a Cadillac disappears into the woods, comes out later & leaves,, His grandfather Died at home,no bank account,no Cash Found afterwards either. I told my friends that when he showed up again to have him call me,, I went into these woods down the hill from the house, I didn't find any Money ,,Yet,, ,there was a low lying bluff just down the hill,, I walked around this bluff to the bottom & stepped in front of a huge overhang,, I looked down at a big Oval shaped Rock,it sits right dead center in front of the overhang,, there on the Rock was a Flintlock rifle & a Flintlock Pistol Carved into the Rock. This doesn't seem to me like it would be the work of the ole timer? on one side of this overhang to the right looking into the overhang,there is a rock Wall about five foot high which runs across to a very large rock & stops,, this wall is made from stacking squared rocks on top of each other,,, out in front of the overhang farther downhill is a rather large pile of Rocks,they are to far from any field to have been from clearing that I can see. I really don't know where to look in this spot,everywhere looks like a Great hiding spot<G>,
My Question is ,,Should I leave this one alone, Since the Grandson is hunting for it sometimes, Should I try to find it,then try to contact him even though I don't know his name? This Cache can't be far from the overhang, If The Grandson is telling the truth about what he is trying to find,, I do find it Odd That The Grandson is telling the neighbors what he is looking for,they think there is a ton of Cash hide there,,,Or Maybe Is this fellow actually hunting for something Else?? Those Rock Carvings look alot older than early 1900's, which is the timeframe on this. I hope im not stepping on anyones toes here,,Since I don't know this person,,Blame the Neighbors<G>!!! Give me some advice on this Guys??? Should I leave This one alone??
Les
 

You are going to get a barrage of replies, and my guess is most will say and think that they are above the law when it comes to trespassing onto anothers property.

My opinion is that you have no moral or legal right to violate someone elses property unless given the owners expressed permission.

If it was my property and I found you digging around, I would have you arrested, assuming of course, that you didn't get a butt full of buckshot first.

Therefore, I would advise you to get permission, written if possible. You need to go to the County Recorders office or Tax Collector to get the name and address of the legal owner. Thats step No. 1...
 

I agree with Stefan on this one - you may get some replies (maybe even some PM's) trying to convince you that the ends justify the means and you should just go out there and search around, but imho if it's not your property, you have no right being there or looking for any cache.

I'm surprised too that the grandson would tell neighbors what he's doing there, but some people are very trusting and would never consider the fact that someone they told might go looking for it themselves.

I think if you are insistent on looking for this, the best option you have available is contacting the owner and asking for permission to metal detect, or contacting the grandson (is he the owner?) and offering to assist his search with your metal detector for a % of any finds.

Best of luck
 

les said:
Hi Guys: Thank's for your replies,, this property is Now National Forest Land,,I would Not trespass on anyones property without permission, I also don't Want to step in front of the Ole timers Grandson, Far as Im concerned It belongs to him,even though the Property is no longer in his family,Hey Im a Grandson also,, I was There Taking Pics,possibly for a later date,, Im hoping to meet this guy at some point & Maybe he will let me Help him find his Grandfathers Cache,from what I understand he uses a Very Cheap Metal Detector & it isn't a good one,, I think that would Be awesome,to help him recover his grandfathers Hoard ,,I wouldn't even worry about a Share of anything. Here is The law on national Forest Property,,
Les
Metal Detectors
The Use of Metal Detectors in the National Forest

Metal detectors on National Forest and other public lands are generally used to look for lost or abandoned items of monetary, historical or collectable value. However, on National Forest lands their use is governed by strict regulations in conformance with federal legislation designed to protect our nation’s heritage as well as other resources. They can be used for searching for treasure trove, locating historical features and artifacts, prospecting for minerals, and searching for coins and lost metal objects.


The term TREASURE TROVE includes money, unmounted gems, precious metal coins, plate, or bullion that has been deliberately hidden with the intention of recovering it later. The search for buried treasure can involve methods that are potentially damaging to forest resources, thus a special-use permit from the Forest Service is required. Each permit request is thoroughly evaluated and permits may not be granted in each case.


ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES: The use of metal detectors to locate objects of historical or archaeological value is permitted in accordance with the provisions of the Antiquities Act of 1906, the Archaeological Resource Protection Act of 1979, and the Secretary of Agriculture’s Regulations regarding protection of heritage resources. This activity requires a special-use permit. Permits are available only for legitimate research activities conducted by qualified individuals. Unauthorized use of metal detectors in the search for and collection of historic and archaeological artifacts is a violation of existing regulations.


MINERAL DEPOSITS: The use of a metal detector to locate mineral deposits such as gold and silver on National Forest System lands is considered prospecting. In the State of Illinois permits are required for prospecting. For more information on the legal requirements of prospecting permits contact the Forest Geologist.


RECENT COINS/METAL OBJECTS: Searching for coins of recent vintage and small objects having no historical value, as a recreational pursuit, using a hand held metal detector, does not require a special-use permit as long as the use of the equipment is confined to areas which do not possess historic or prehistoric resources. In some areas this can be difficult to determine. On the Shawnee National Forest, metal detector enthusiasts are free to explore developed recreation areas such as Garden of the Gods, Pounds Hollow, and Lake Glendale, but are excluded from areas known historical significance such as the Lincoln Memorial. The Lincoln Memorial is the location of one of the 1858 Lincoln-Douglas Debates and was a gathering place for the Anna-Jonesboro community prior to that date. As such there are artifacts embedded in the ground that may relate to that event.


Please…Help us Protect Our Common Heritage

Les

Very interesting - I wouldn't have expected such well written rules on the use of metal detectors on National Forest Land - I wonder if that's only in your area?

If you truly don't care about a share of any find, you may very well be able to convince the person that you simply want to help him for the sheer enjoyment of being on a real "treasure hunt." I'm sure you could convince him that your experience with metal detectors would be a valuable asset and perhaps maybe even have a legal document drawn up whereby you offer to help without expectations of any reward or % of finds.

On the other hand, if I read that correctly, you're supposed to get a special use permit to look for treasure trove items - this is where my mistrust of the government in general comes out I suppose, but it makes me wonder how much information you would have to supply to get the permit and if you give them enough info. what's to stop someone in the department from not issuing it and then going looking for it themselves. From what I've heard it's quite difficult to get one of those permits as well.

You've got alot of options really - some legal, some ethical, some otherwise :)

In a perfect world you could help the guy find his grandfather's lost stash and he would reward you with a portion of it - sad thing is, that's probably the least likely thing to happen :(

If nothing else, you've got an interesting situation and I hope you'll continue to share at least bits and pieces of it to us.

As a last comment - I just happened to think of this. What is there stopping you from just using your detector to see if you can "find" something without doing any digging? I would think if you went onto the land with just your detector and no digging devices and just used it to maybe identify "something" under the ground somewhere or perhaps under a pile of rocks etc... that might not be against the law - and if you do find something (or more than one thing) you could contact the grandson at that point and make him an offer.

Just another option among many I guess :)

Good luck and have fun!
 

Les, You do what you think is right! But as for me if I got wind of a good lead and had already been able to get to the site, and see the marked rocks. On public property yet. I'd feel it was open game and would belong to the one who could find it. I'd load up my locator in my back pack with some lunch and go for it. With the tree cover I'd not be seen. If I found it I'd bring it out even if I had to make several trips. Then zip the lips. If you aren't willing to go for the gold you'll not find it, and might as well stay with coin shooting. Remember all buried treasure can be said to have belonged to someone at some time. Spain is said to be going after the fellows that find the gold on the treasure ships she still claims as well as the State and Fed. Gov. ----- !!! The one who has the gold makes the rules. Or would you be one of the show and tell guys?
 

Clip a willow and tell gramps to "show me the money" Twisted.
 

Les.......Are the bent treasure trail trees nearby? I'll bet they are!
Have you read about the use of gun symbols in treasure books, and on forums? "Shadow of the Sentinel" specifically mentions the topic.

I would also encourage you to do no digging without a permit. If you believe you know the law, check again. Other than coin shooting on a beach, or permitted area, digging in a National Forrest is NOT legal.
You can photo trees, and rocks, and do much valuable work, but most Fed or Nat land requires specific use permits for digging.

I know of Treasure hunters that have had their equipment, and vehicles confiscated. (and YEARS later, still not returned) I am aware of two th'rs in Nat Forrest that were arrested, charged, and eventually convicted, and fined heavily. They had found NOTHING, but were digging around carvings. They did have an arrowhead.

I am also aware of arrests in MO. I know Ok, Ar. , Mo., all have employees who's job function involves approving, or rejecting treasure digging permits.

The National and other government land is really not as public or as open to public use as you would think. Call about the need for permits. Our group, applies for, and has received permits to dig on government land. It is not easy, but can be done.

If you are planning digs out of ignorance, be advised ignorance is no excuse from legal convictions. If you inquire and are told no permit needed to dig on federal, or national land, get that in writing, it may help in court. You may get off, but I'm pretty sure you will be empty handed.

If you are planning on excursions to these places, without contractual permission, stop announcing it on the web. Do you think only Th'rs read this? What about the treasure stewards?
 

Clueman said:
Les.......Are the bent treasure trail trees nearby? I'll bet they are!
Have you read about the use of gun symbols in treasure books, and on forums? "Shadow of the Sentinel" specifically mentions the topic.

I would also encourage you to do no digging without a permit. If you believe you know the law, check again. Other than coin shooting on a beach, or permitted area, digging in a National Forrest is NOT legal.
You can photo trees, and rocks, and do much valuable work, but most Fed or Nat land requires specific use permits for digging.

I know of Treasure hunters that have had their equipment, and vehicles confiscated. (and YEARS later, still not returned) I am aware of two th'rs in Nat Forrest that were arrested, charged, and eventually convicted, and fined heavily. They had found NOTHING, but were digging around carvings. They did have an arrowhead.

I am also aware of arrests in MO. I know Ok, Ar. , Mo., all have employees who's job function involves approving, or rejecting treasure digging permits.

The National and other government land is really not as public or as open to public use as you would think. Call about the need for permits. Our group, applies for, and has received permits to dig on government land. It is not easy, but can be done.

If you are planning digs out of ignorance, be advised ignorance is no excuse from legal convictions. If you inquire and are told no permit needed to dig on federal, or national land, get that in writing, it may help in court. You may get off, but I'm pretty sure you will be empty handed.

If you are planning on excursions to these places, without contractual permission, stop announcing it on the web. Do you think only Th'rs read this? What about the treasure stewards?

I may be mistaken, but I think if you read his posts carefully, you'll note that he knows a permit is required on Natl. Forest land to do any digging and he never implied he was planning to do any without one.

I'm wondering what would happen if you just went out detecting with no digging tools on your person at all - just basically out seeing if you could pick up any large signal in an area you thought might be a likely "hiding" spot. Without any digging tool, technically I don't see how that would be perceived as breaking any rules.
 

Hi Guys: I don't know If there are any Bent tree's in this area,haven't looked ,,Yet,, Im thinking that the Grandson is telling the truth about His Gramps, Im not planning to Dig anything, when I seen those Guns carved into that Rock It caught my attention because I don't believe those gun carvings have anything to do with gramp's Stash, The Carvings are just to old, the grandson as I said is around 68,he lived with Gramp's as a Child,those Gun carvings I know date back farther in time,but, I don't know what they mean or if they point to anything, I will find my pics, then you 'all can be the judge of that,
Clue I don't Care if other people are reading my post, I don't plan to break any laws or step on anyones toes,try to go ahead of anyone, I wouldn't do that,, I will send you The Location of these Gun Carvings if you want. I myself don't know what they mean if anything,,.
Les
 

Les......It's entirely possible the carvings are markers to $$$. Maybe Great Grandpa, or Grandpa was "in the circle". The bent trees probably are there as well. The presence of two different guns may indicate two different stashes. It's possible one is $, the other weapons. It's also possible one is little, one big. , or one close, one far. There may be $$ that is fairly easy to recover. Send the picture.
Clueman
 

Maybe grandpa's stash was not his own, but one he stumbled upon, a cache that was buried 100 years earlier and marked by the gun carvings.
 

jbot said:
Maybe grandpa's stash was not his own, but one he stumbled upon, a cache that was buried 100 years earlier and marked by the gun carvings.

That's what I was wondering too :)

If nothing else, I'd love to see some photos of the carvings in the rocks!
 

Hi Guys: thank's for the input,, After thinking this over some,,I believe I have to leave this spot alone,,Someone is hunting for something there,even though they aren't there much,I feel like I have to respect that!!,they are probably thinking This site is safe from Intruders,,it is a very out of the way location,, The People The Grandson told his story to are both Female,,he Probably didn't think they would show someone like me that spot. It's funny though,
I did take pics of that rock,the rock wall & the huge overhang, that overhang is big enough for 50 people to get under,,but, I can't find the pic's,,I am going there this Weekend to take more pic's to post for you'all to see, then I don't think I will be going back there after that.
The Rock with the Gun Carvings does have something else carved on it also,but, believe it or not,,I can't remember what it was?? The Guns jumped out at me when I seen them,I looked at them enough to see that they were Flintlock weapons,,I took pics from horseback & went on.
Im not up on Carvings & stuff like that, Now im wondering What else was carved on that darn Rock or if there are more carvings there somewhere,,but,, Pics are all Im going to take from there. Now im really Curious What else is carved on that Rock??? Would you guys go back to take more pic's?
Les
 

I'd absolutely go back and take pictures. You sound like a really nice respectful person - alot of people here would/will likely call you crazy for not searching yourself and/or speaking to the grandson, but you have character and whether people would do the same thing as you or not, you have my respect.

You may very well be right that the guy would be upset if he learned that your two female friends told someone else about his search. It could ruin a friendship he shares with them.

That said, I see nothing at all wrong with gathering as many pictures as you feel like.

I sent you a PM, but I'm going to reiterate it here as well....

As a trusting/nice/respectful person, you are fair game for unscrupulous folks who may "lurk" on sites like this and try to get every little hint of information from you so they can go find whatever may be there (if anything). Just be cautious of who you give information to and how specific you are. Hidden "treasure" and financial gain can be a very tantalizing prospect for some people and I for one would rather see a find like this hidden than exploited and taken by someone like that.

There - my personal rant is done :)

Now go out and get some pictures - just make sure when you post them that you don't list the GPS coordinates :)
 

Hi Guys: Im still around, I did decide to not go back to that Site even for Pics,, there was someone hunting for that Cache, I don't know who He is,, or what reaction he may have If he was to come there while I was taking pics of His Cache location,,something to think about,, It probably wouldn't happen ,but, it could,,,,,anyways,, I see that Location right now as someone elses site,,,maybe someday I'll find my Pics around here & post them,.
Les
 

les said:
Hi Guys: Im still around, I did decide to not go back to that Site even for Pics,, there was someone hunting for that Cache, I don't know who He is,, or what reaction he may have If he was to come there while I was taking pics of His Cache location,,something to think about,, It probably wouldn't happen ,but, it could,,,,,anyways,, I see that Location right now as someone elses site,,,maybe someday I'll find my Pics around here & post them,.
Les


First,

Here are the relevant legal citations regarding Metal Detecting in National Forests:

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9: "The following are
prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying,
or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological
resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any
prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site,
artifact, property."

USDA Forest Service Manual Direction (draft): "Metal Detector Use. Metal
detectors may be used on public lands in areas that do not contain or
would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical
resources. They must be used, however, for lawful purposes. Any act with
a metal detector that violates the proscriptions of the Archaeological
Resources Protection Act (ARPA) or any other law is prosecutable.
Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed
recreation sites are open to metal detecting unless there are heritage
resources present. In such cases, Forest Supervisors are authorized to
close these sites by posting notices in such sites."

ARPA, 16 U.S.C. 470cc: "No person may excavate, remove, damage, or
otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or
otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indian
lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit. . ."

Next,

If that "someone" was not the grandson, you have just as much right to be there as him. It is after all, public land now. I think your best course of action is to contact the grandson and tell him that you saw a guy looking for his granddad's cache, and you would be willing to help him find it before someone else grabs his inheritance. I bet he will be more than happy to enlist your help.

You do, however, now have a bigger legal problem. Since that land is now a National Forest, you would be required to file for a digging permit and also file for a treasure trove. You WILL be required to prove that you know the location of the trove before they will grant you a permit. If you dig up grampa's cache, and get caught, it will all be seized.


Best-Mike
 

Hi Mike: Thank's,,,Any advice Is good advice when you post the laws on it,,Thank's for taking the time to do that,, That Site is so Secluded with Private property surrounding it ,,No one would ever know a person dug anything,,but,, The person I was speaking of that Was hunting for that Cache is the Grandson Himself,,at least he says he is,,,,That Money Belonged to his Granddad more than likely,, I gotta stay away from that one until I can find out if he is still looking for it,,& I would like to Contact him,,but I don't have a name yet,,working on it,, looking at Census records, Property records etc,,still don't know if I can find him,,maybe he will show up to look more,,I ask to be contacted if he shows again,,
Thank's,,,Cya,, Les
 

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