Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs/Dec 5. Update by Ricardo_NY1

[Ricardo_NY1]

For those interested or who down the road get a 250, just wanted to let you know that the technique for X'ing which I outlined in the photos in this post worked almost flawlessly for me last night. This is something that I developed in my living room and could not verify until I actually tried it last night for about 3 hours.........the verdict......I went from digging huge holes to getting the accuracy I had developed with my former metal detector. I was dead on. Now I feel good with my ACE 250. Also, I will write a seperate and new topic today regarding bottle caps. All ACE 250 users might be interested in reading this.

I just started using this detector about 3 days ago and I am impressed with its depth capabilities already, however, please let me hear your input on the following...........

1. "X'ing", let's forget about pin-pointing, I'm talking about good 'ol manual X'ing. X'ing has proven very, very tricky. Only yesterday did I learn that the signal is given off on the outer sides of the coil. In other words, on a left sweep, you hear the beep when the right edge of the coil passes and vice versa. With the BH 1100 style, I started X'ing with good accuracy, with the 250 I am kind of all over the place. Advice, tips, even how long it took you to get used to manual X'ing with this different system would be appreciated here. I could seriously do without a pin-pointer as I did with the BH 1100, but only if my X'ing is as accurate as I got it with that detector. Pin-pointing with the 250 is a subject all to its own. I personally would rather learn a detector to the point where I have the X'ing down packed before I go onto and relying on pin-pointing with a PPointer.

2. Discrimination. So far it is bottle cap thirsty. I found a somewhat compromising fix to the bottle caps by eliminating the notch that is indicated by the red arrow in the attached photo, however, by eliminating that notch, I can get a signal on a 1980 and new 2006 penny, but not a wheatie. I'll have to pass on the wheaties with this 250, as there are just to many caps out there........what irks me a bit is that my BH 1100 had no issue disc'ing these caps out in its simple Disc modes.....I actually took some of these caps home and the BH eliminated them fine while picking up a wheatie. Can anyone here elaborate on this?

Are there other detectors out there that employ the outer edge signal like the ACE 250? The BH 1100 that I was using sounded off when the object passed near center, and this seems logical and the learning curve for X'ing was a whole lot easier.

 

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[Sandman]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

All the advanced electronics in the newer detectors has the hot spot on the edges, or most of them anyway. Check out http://www.garrett.com/hobby/techsupport/pinpointing.htm to learn how to X a target with the Ace 250.

Others don't seem to have trouble with the Ace 250 missing Wheaties and getting to many bottle caps. Perhaps you are getting screw caps which are different and have a higher discrimination value. Have you tried using a smaller coil on these sites covered with "bottle caps?" Turn down the sensitivity some too.


Good Luck,
Sandman

 

[gregl01]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Pinpointing is tricky at first, but works well once you figure it out. I too started x-ing and on the Ace it doesn't work well. The easiest thing to do is x to find the general spot and then move the coil away and then press and hold the button while moving the coil in an x pattern again. When icon bar is full that is the spot!!! Hope this helps, also check Garretts web site for tips. As for the penny issue, a 1980 and the older wheaties are the same metallic composition so that won't matter. If there are wheaties present the Ace will find them!!!!! Good luck to you and remember that practice makes perfect
Greg

 

[Monty]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

If you will notice most of the "pros" on Tnet hunt in all metal or no discrimination and dig everything...unless they are looking for a specific object. Anytime you discriminate anything you have to possibly sacrifice something in return, with any detector, and that's a fact. The detector doesn't know if it is a coin, a ring or a piece of junk. It only measures the resistance of that object and converts it to a corresponding scale on the detector. By a scale I mean a tone, a pointer or an LCD readout. Some top of the line detectors do all three. The Garrett GTI series will even indicate the relative size of a target.
I have read here on the net and other places that several people have trouble pinpointing with their ACE 250. I've never had that problem with mine. When I locate a target I hit it from several different directions and listen closely for the strongest tone and X it from several different angles with the pinpointer engaged. Only when I am certain of the loudest tone and highest reading do I find the target in the very center of the coil. It only takes a couple of seconds and does away with lots of frustrating digging. I also use a pinpointing probe to follow up if I don't see the target immediately after digging where the detector indicated. Lots of time I will find the target on the edge of the plug or even in the dirt I dug out. It is normal for the target to be about an inch deeper than indicated by the pinpointer on the detector. Also, the depth of the target is much more accurate in the pinpoint mode than the search mode. Hope this helps. Monty

 

[Phantasman]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

It's good to know this information. It would seem, to a newbie like myself, that different detectors use different methods of detecting. The biggest problem seems to be to change one's methods of pinpointing to adapt to a new standard of pinpointing.

 

[JT2]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

I have found that on shallow targets that the pinpoint location shows just on the edge of the inner coil, see attached picture. If you press pinpoint near to the target it sets a new threshold level, and the machine will sing once the target is within the inner coil. It will be quiet when the target is withing the inner to outer coil, and give a lower level indication when the target is outside the outer coil.

Test pinpointing with some targets just placed upon the ground, and notice how you can change the threshold level, and notice that the machine lights up once the inner coil is over the target. It will continue to sing while the target is within the inner coil, so you move the coil in a straight line and use the front and back end of the coil to define the location of the target.

This seems to work well for small targets at 2-4 inches of depth. Deeper or larger targets are harder to pinpoint I've found. I still use a pinpointer on all targets. It is nice to know precisely where to dig, and the pinpointer helps to identify the brown crusted coin from the brown soil.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Thanks for all the advice that has been given so far........I'm not shooting my 250 down, as a matter of fact I've been pretty impressed with its depth..........I've been finding coins at greater depths. One of the clad quarters I found was standing on edge at almost 7"........and that silver ring was also pretty deep. I know I would not have gotten those kind of hits with my first detector. The depth readings are also right on. This machine is my opinion is pretty capable, and again, on air tests and on the field, the depth is impressive, very impressive. I just need to get my X'ing in order, and believe me, I've been experimenting viciously. I believe I have found a technique that might work, I just need to get out there and try it. In short, and this could be a coil to coil difference, but after an extensive home arranged test with a few coins, I notice that when approaching the coin at various depths, the machine will not start to give a signal until the coil begins to sweep over it with the first 2 inches already over the coin. Lastly, by giving the process a final left and right sweep and determining the center, I realize that simply laying the coil down, the coin falls in the area highlighted in my picture attached. I did this many times in a coin on the ground air test. I need to try it out on the field. Maybe I need to try many things out before I come across something that works, but I will eventually get it. There is no question already in my mind that trying to determine the exact location gets harder the deeper a target is, and I am finding deeper targets than what I was digging with my 1100.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

JT2, what you just posted goes along with my last night's observations.......that the target/coin will not begin to signal until the coil is begining to sweep with about 2" of it over. I've made quite a few observations about this coil......hours and hours air testing and other tests.....including that targets signal over each segment of the coil....the outer and inner rings, especially on slow passes. Starting from the center of the coil, by the time the target leaves the coil, you can hear the distinct double "Boing" as it goes through each ring, usually only when the pass is slow enough.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

I have the same problems. I rely on the pinpoint mode and have bought a handheld pinpointer.

I havent found a bottle cap solution other than turning down the sensitivity.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,52768.0.html

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,19202.0.html

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Bigcypress,
For me the only way to erradicate the caps has been to eliminate the notch in the pic I attached in the begining of this post.......otherwise the detector will pick up a whole bunch of different caps, caps which my BH 1100 has no issue disc'ing in it's silver/copper only mode which finds coins left and right. With this notch eliminated however, certain pennies are also disc'd out.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Copper pennies changed to zinc clad in 1982.

Bigcypress,
For me the only way to erradicate the caps has been to eliminate the notch in the pic I attached in the begining of this post.......otherwise the detector will pick up a whole bunch of different caps, caps which my BH 1100 has no issue disc'ing in it's silver/copper only mode which finds coins left and right. With this notch eliminated however, certain pennies are also disc'd out.

What about dimes? Do you lose any dimes?

 

[dahut]

Heres the deal

Xing:
It can be tricky at first, but it gets better and I have reached a point where I dont use the PP much - you are wise to strive for that. Keep in mind that on shallow targets the point at which the signal stops beeping as you drag the coil back to you will be right at the forward tip of the inner loop. Do yourself a favor; get a bit of yellow paint or a yellow sticker and put it right there on the inner loop tip as a visual aid.
BUT, and here's the kicker, on deeper targets, the "Cone Effect" causes the signal to move back in the inner loop towards the middle "notch" on the coil center mount.
Knowing these things and then practicing them will help you achieve a smoother flow to your detecting.

DISC and your bottle caps:
Im assuming you mean what we more correctly refer to as "screwcaps" - as opposed to the old fashioned steel bottle caps. At least from the notch you are talking about thats' the appearance. Heres some bad news for you: You're right. The Ace will pick them up quite readily and if you notch out that little section, you get some overlap, as Monte said and as you've noticed. I guarantee you this...you WILL NOT ELIMINATE THEM altogether.
The ACE is processor based, NOT analog. This means it has a response lag and a broader "window" over which it sees. This is especially so with large shallow targets, like screwcaps. Notching has limits and is not a finite matter, especially with large trash targets and/or deeply buried large iron. Couple that with a sensitive gain circuit like your ACE has and you begin to see the picture in terms of "overload driven falsing."
The thing to do is to STOP believing the "trash from treasure" hype and START learning how to recognize such things as SC's for what they are. Instead of expecting your little detector to be perfect, learn what it is telling you about the targets it scans over. Each target has a signature and can be pretty reliably ID'd by that, with a little experience.

The amount of trash out there is truly staggering and the modern detector does an AMAZING job of dealing with it. You should have tried some of the old ones! Since you are on the receivng end of this barrage, I would suggest these things:
1. Each detector is different and what one does, another may not. Try to avoid comparisons and instead learn the one you have. I'll wager that your little 1100 was missing other things along with those SC's it blanked for you. Masking is a real problem and it was guilty of it, I guarantee it.
2. Develop a diggers mentality. Since you are metal detecting, it behooves you to go the extra step and dig up what you detect. Otherwise, you are merely metal locating, when taken as a whole. Cherry picking, in other words.
3. Run in the ALL METAL mode for awhile. Youll be amazed at all the junk that is everywhere and will be profoundly impressed by the potential for masking to affect your results.
4. Reduce that SENS to about half, maybe a little more. Cranking it up is like running high beams in the fog...you cant see squat for all the reflection! This is true with the ACE...it falses when you are running in trashy areas and the SENS is too high. Save the wide open stuff for cleaner areas.
5. Make the Jewelry mode your main hunt mode...AVOID the coins mode altogether.
6. One of my best gold finds, a huge chunk, was dead on the screwcap mark... the very one YOU notch out - keep that in mind.
7. Develop a cavalier attitude towards trash. Its out there, youre gonna find it. Shrug and move on.
8. Relax and enjoy yourself. Fresh air, exercise, mental stimulation, man you're saving on healthcare costs, if nothing else! Besides, no matter how much you find, you aint taking it with you....

I know I sound harsh, even "preachy," but these are things that you should hear, especially now that your are moving forward as a detectorist. By the way, congrats on that, you've cleared the first hurdle by moving into another detector. I recall when you were asking about the Ace, trying to decide if you should get one. Its a good thing you did; it's a quality instrument that works well. Now, just treat it like a new girlfriend - take the time to get to know it and have patience.

 

[Ricardo_NY1]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Cypresshunter, the dimes are not lost. However, I do have the feeling of what is being said here, and that is the more disc, the more targets that I am going to miss by the mask effect. I have already tested this out on the 250 coil by holding certain other metal objects in proximity to a coin and the impact is beyond noticeable. I've found that a 9 volt battery for instance when held about 3 inches from a quarter will not be detected in an air test unless it is withing 3-4 inches from the coil.......where normally if the quarter was by itself, it would sound off at around 7 1/2 inches from the coil with about 5 bars of sens. Dahut, thanks for your advice, and no I take no offense to anything that you have said. I have read your posts throughout these forums and you offer some seriously sound advice. I will use and test the sh&t out of this detector until I get it right. My agenda is not with the detector itself.....I feel it is a great machine........I just need to get my X'ing with it correct before I move on to trying to get the PP'er. I see PP'ing as an extra measure of help, but not as the primary technique. I need to X right first and then move on to getting the PP'ing right.

 

[Sandman]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

Dahut, I like your line for turning down the sensitivity--

Reduce that SENS to about half, maybe a little more. Cranking it up is like running high beams in the fog...you cant see squat for all the reflection! This is true with the ACE...it falses when you are running in trashy areas and the SENS is too high. Save the wide open stuff for cleaner areas.

This applies to many areas and other detectors where many think they will detect deeper, and don't.

Sandman

 

[Monty]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs

I have found that I get the most trouble free operation when I hunt at 4 bars. Las summer I found a silver dime at 9" at a club hunt with planted coins. That has been my deepest coin find with my ACE250. I also found two wheat cent prize tokens at 7" in the same hunt. So, depth isn't a problem with the sensitivity turned down moderately. Monty

 

[dahut]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs/Dec 5. Update

This applies to many areas and other detectors where many think they will detect deeper, and don't.

I catch myself doing it, too.
"Turn that sucker up," I say, "...and it will make goodies appear that weren’t there before."

Of course, that's poppycock. If it aint there, you cant find it. But what if it is there, but it is deep, as these discussions always end up hitting at? Going way back to my first learnings in electronics, I recall a phenomenon that governs the field of detection that a detector can create. It isn’t mentioned much but it answers the question of depth. Basically, it has to do with the physical size of the coil. If you don’t want to read more, just remember that bigger coils = greater depth.

But for those who are interested, here's why that is.

An antenna, which is what we have with a detectors coil, has a radiant field volume that is theoretically infinite. This "detection field" extends upward and downward from the coil, or, if you prefer, like big, mickey-mouse ears when viewed with the coil standing vertically on edge. Ever seen a radio stations antenna? Tall, isn't it? This lets it emit a large field with a lot of power, over a vast area. However, when viewed from the side, it looks the same as our mouse-ear example (indeed it is the same), only scaled down for detector use.

But, there is a problem. Above we said the field is infinite, but that isn’t really so. In a perfectly coupled radiation field (max efficiency), from a perfect antenna, you can actually expect to see a full-power field only equal in diameter and length to the diameter of the antenna. This degradation from infinite quickly occurs, described by an electrical constant called 'root mean square' or RMS.

This RMS constant: .707(coil diameter), has the effect of reducing the effective emission field of any RF emitter. For example, with a 10" coil, RMS averaging knocks back our perfect field and allows for an effective cone or bubble a bit more than 7" or so all around the coil. There is still energy in the fringes of the field and beyond (infinitely, in theory), but there is just so little of it that it is almost impossible to capture.

"Hey, wait a minute" you say, "My favorite detector goes deeper than that!"

Actually, no it doesn't, not in terms of the effective radiant field it generates within the soil matrix. The RMS effect sees to that. But, if you'll recall, I said "almost impossible to capture," above. While the radiant field size/strength cannot change due the limitations mentioned, we are able to take advantage of its effects on targets far better than before, especially in the fringes of the effective field (and just beyond)... thanks to advances in low power, quiet, high amplification circuitry.

Think for second; What do you use to pick up and listen to the signal from the radio station in our examples? That’s right, a relatively small receiver, when compared to the emitter. What you are doing is using a tiny amount of the fringe energy from the transmitter’s radiant field - on the order of microwatts of power - and amplifying this to the point where you can drive a speaker, headphones, etc.

That same thing happens in a detector. A large (relatively) electrical field is generated by the antenna (coil) and correspondingly minute amounts of reflected energy from this field are received, amplified and processed by the instruments circuitry. In the old days, detectors weren’t very good at all this and were notoriously shallow seeking, consuming a lot power. To get any real depth you needed a lot of power in the radiant field (big batteries) and an antenna the size of a manhole cover. Think of the old WWII mine detectors as an example. Today that same job of detecting a mine could easily be handled by the most basic of hobby detectors, all things being equal.

But, as we the consumers demand deeper and deeper seeking detectors, something has to be done. Electronic circuitry capable of amplifying the weakest of received signals without distortion can only progress so fast - and we've come a long way with this, already. Just look at the small, lightweight designs from Tesoro, Minelab and others. A few little batteries and all circuitry in an area the size of a pack of smokes!**
** The truth is, they could go further, but cutting edge electronics which would allow even greater sensitivity to the weakest of signals are prohibitively expensive.

Therefore, most of the detectors these days that are touted as DEEPEST are hybrid devices: The latest in micro sized, high-gain circuits joined to ever increasing coil diameters. For a long time, 8” was the standard coil diameter. Then, the Whites line came out a few years ago with the 9.5" plates. Others followed suit and I believe Minelabs newest has a 10 or 10.5" coil. They add lots of bells and whistles and some honest-to-goodness benefits like AutoTracking ground balancing, also made possible by the microcontrollers available these days.

But, the electro-physics that govern the operation of a detectors heart, the search coil, hasn't changed. Depth is still tied to searchcoil size.

 

[Sandman]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs/Dec 5. Update

Now you went an did it Dahut, ya let the cat outta the bag. Everyone is gonna want the biggest coil they can get. Then we'll be beset with questions on how to hunt trashy areas.

RMS fields indeed. I know what your saying, but I get great satisfaction out of just putting duct tape over the blinking time numbers on my VCR.

It's true that soon we will have these micro circuits at a cost that can be put into the coming detectors. Which company is going to be the first to bring one out that will be competitive in price?

HH,
Sandman

 

[dahut]

Re: Calling all ACE 250 Connoisseurs/Dec 5. Update

RMS fields indeed. I know what your saying, but I get great satisfaction out of just putting duct tape over the blinking time

Im with you man. I have a rudimentary understanding if this stuff, but my next detector is going to be a FIsher 1236-X2. I like to keep it simple. I only hope my long winded thesis was of some use to others. My favorite part of college was writing the papers - sick, man, sick!

It's true that soon we will have these micro circuits at a cost that can be put into the coming detectors. Which company is going to be the first to bring one out that will be competitive in price?
Who will be the first to explore the newest low power/hi-gain circuits coming on line? Hmmmmm, good question. Whoever brings engineers on board from cutting edge Sat/Com or aerospace industries would be my guess. Minelab, Garrett or Tesoro.