Can You Scientifically Prove to the World That LRLs Work?

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~

You've claimed the 70 LRLers on here several times before, but when asked, you were never able to show who they are. It seems they actually are: "non-existant."

Gee EE..All you have to do is read their posts

How you prove your claims to the World is your problem. If I wanted to prove that a metal detector worked, I know I wouldn't have any trouble doing that, for free.

I am not the one that keeps crying about us not proving it to the world..We see no need to do anything else because we have proved to the treasure hunters on t-net

I have already given you many suggestions on how to go about it---all of them at no expense to you. But I suppose you have a silly excuse for each one of them. So you figure it out. It's not my problem.

And all your suggestions are not expectable to the Scientific Community

But if you want to keep making unbelievable claims about LRLs, you will need to prove it to the World before anyone is going to believe you.

We just put our facts on this forum...It is up to the membership to decide if they are believable, not you..

Currently, all the evidence says that LRLs don't work.

Yes..that is what all your posts seem to say

More of your tall tales isn't going to change that.

All we can do is tell the truth..Art

 

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[humble]

Jeeeez, Dell---Why do you try to substitute tall tales, for actual proof, especially under a topic such at this particular one? The topic is about Scientific Proof! Do you get it now?

Haven't you got it yet? There are no Scientist on this forum to give you a Scientific report. Why do you keep harassing and filling up the threads with stupid questions with inferences that we are liars about what has been found with LRL.? It's a wonder your antics haven't caught the attention of the moderator.

If you want a Scientific report, go to a forum where there are Earth Scientist. If you are interested in learning methods used by Treasure Hunters, this is the forum.

If you want to conduct your own Scientific tests on LRL, then simply pay for the services of a skilled operator and conduct all the Scientific tests you want. It's that simple. We have tried to show you information about various types of LRL. You aren't listening. All evidence shows they do work in many cases.

It is your claim that there is no LRL that works. Prove it, or stop complaining. humble

You have it all backwards, Dell.

When I refer to Scientific Method, I simply mean some kind of real, public, proof. Something more than only tall tales.

Everyone else in the World, who makes valid claims, is happy to step up and prove what they say. While LRL promoters hate the mention of the word "proof." What's wrong with that picture?

A person doesn't need to be a Scientist to provide real proof of something. It only requires common sense.

Real proof is not an anecdotal story, or someone saying that they "proved" it to their friend. That is another common sense aspect which is lacking with the LRL promoters.

There is no real evidence that any LRL on the market has ever actually found anything.

Yes, LRL promoters have tried to explain how they work, but it seems that each LRLer has a different "expert" explanation! With the LRL promoters contradicting each other, it is obvious that none of their ideas are correct, because none of them have ever worked!

If you would like to be the first to step up and publically perform A REAL Scientific Test for LRLs, then simply go ahead and do so. And all of your frustration will be alleviated!

With any issue like this, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting the claim. If you keep insisting that LRLs work, then you are making that claim, and the burden of proof is upon you, and not the challenger to your claim.

Since LRL promoters have consistently refused to even try to prove their claims to the World, it certainly appears that they simply cannot. And the reason they cannot is because their LRLs don't work. That's just more common sense.

Do you get it now?

ref, Public Proof: ABC 20/20 news documentary 1986 (Scientist report their discovery with the aid of MFG}

EE, You seem to be confused. I claim that some LRL's work well for me. I don't claim everyone else in the world can learn to use them. Your personal example makes that point very obvious.

You on the other hand are claiming that LRL's do not work for anyone, in effect, calling me and other Treasure Hunters who use LRL's a liar. If you insist on inferring that a person is a liar on a public forum you best be able to back up your claim, or back off and apologize.

I have truthfully informed you, and this forum. that my basic knowledge about MFD & HID comes from my mentor, James Stagner, a retired NASA Earth Scientist. They work exactly as he described they would. I have his letters to back me up. Many documented discoveries have been made, and Treasures have been found and recovered with the aid of MFD LRL since then.

The only person I have to prove LRL's work is to myself. That was done years ago. I have tried to share with you that some LRL's do indeed work for me, as well as many others I know.

Yet, you continue to publicly infer that I am a liar, and claim LRL's don't work for anyone, period. You are the one making Bogus public claims against LRL users so if your allegations are to be credible, SHOW YOUR PROOF!

If you can't prove your allegations to be true and factual, then apologies from you are in order. humble

 

[EE THr]

ref, Public Proof: ABC 20/20 news documentary 1986 (Scientist report their discovery with the aid of MFG}

EE, You seem to be confused. I claim that some LRL's work well for me. I don't claim everyone else in the world can learn to use them. Your personal example makes that point very obvious.

You on the other hand are claiming that LRL's do not work for anyone, in effect, calling me and other Treasure Hunters who use LRL's a liar. If you insist on inferring that a person is a liar on a public forum you best be able to back up your claim, or back off and apologize.

I have truthfully informed you, and this forum. that my basic knowledge about MFD & HID comes from my mentor, James Stagner, a retired NASA Earth Scientist. They work exactly as he described they would. I have his letters to back me up. Many documented discoveries have been made, and Treasures have been found and recovered with the aid of MFD LRL since then.

The only person I have to prove LRL's work is to myself. That was done years ago. I have tried to share with you that some LRL's do indeed work for me, as well as many others I know.

Yet, you continue to publicly infer that I am a liar, and claim LRL's don't work for anyone, period. You are the one making Bogus public claims against LRL users so if your allegations are to be credible, SHOW YOUR PROOF!

If you can't prove your allegations to be true and factual, then apologies from you are in order. humble

Here is the sum of what my statements about LRLs is, and always has been. I have stated this over and over, at various times, and in various ways, on this forum---

"I have no particular reason to doubt that some people might be able to find stuff with dowsing. And, since LRLs are nothing more than dowsing rods, the same thing goes for LRLs. But LRLs are nothing more, and therefore no better, than dowsing rods; and the so-called "electronics" added to dowsing rods, which are then called "LRLs," are totally useless and therefore worthless. Furthermore, no LRL or MFD on the market has ever been Scientifically proven to the World to actually find anything."

I will add that, since the so-called "MFDs" require the use of dowsing rods, that the same statement applies to them.

And, since the burden of proof is always upon the claimant, it is up to you to prove your claims, rather than up to anyone else to "disprove" them. However there actually is an abundance of evidence that LRLs don't work, as in the following: A Dozen Points Proving LRL Fraud, seeing as these points have never been rationally refuted.

While at the same time, there is no evidence whatsoever that LRLs do work at all.

Anecdotal stories and letters are not proof, either by common sense or court evidence.

Since anyone who insisted on continually claiming to have a working device would happily stand up and prove it to the World, I challenge you to do so, or back off and apologize for making false claims to the public. This is your opportunity to do so, and settle this issue right now, if it is truly important to you, and if you really want to.

If you need some suggestions on how to go about proving your claims, here are some: A Scientific Test for LRLs.

If you cannot Scientifically prove your claims openly to the World, or if you simply refuse to try, then you have no grounds on which to complain.

You can either stand and deliver now, or sit down and quit whining.

Which will it be?

 

[aarthrj3811]

Thank you again for proving that you are the “Claimant”...So start proving your claims...Art

 

[EddieR]

Why can't the promoters of the pseudoscientific method agree on whether or not a LRL'er would publicize a working LRL? One day they say that if there was one that actually worked, they would not hide it, they would bring it into the public. Then, they claim (of course they will call it a "counterclaim" in order to escape showing proof of their opinion) that if a person had a working LRL, they would keep quiet about it and just go find everything for themselves.

Wonder why that is?

 

[humble]

ref, Public Proof: ABC 20/20 news documentary 1986 (Scientist report their discovery with the aid of MFG}

EE, You seem to be confused. I claim that some LRL's work well for me. I don't claim everyone else in the world can learn to use them. Your personal example makes that point very obvious.

You on the other hand are claiming that LRL's do not work for anyone, in effect, calling me and other Treasure Hunters who use LRL's a liar. If you insist on inferring that a person is a liar on a public forum you best be able to back up your claim, or back off and apologize.

I have truthfully informed you, and this forum. that my basic knowledge about MFD & HID comes from my mentor, James Stagner, a retired NASA Earth Scientist. They work exactly as he described they would. I have his letters to back me up. Many documented discoveries have been made, and Treasures have been found and recovered with the aid of MFD LRL since then.

The only person I have to prove LRL's work is to myself. That was done years ago. I have tried to share with you that some LRL's do indeed work for me, as well as many others I know.

Yet, you continue to publicly infer that I am a liar, and claim LRL's don't work for anyone, period. You are the one making Bogus public claims against LRL users so if your allegations are to be credible, SHOW YOUR PROOF!

If you can't prove your allegations to be true and factual, then apologies from you are in order. humble

Here is the sum of what my statements about LRLs is, and always has been. I have stated this over and over, at various times, and in various ways, on this forum---

"I have no particular reason to doubt that some people might be able to find stuff with dowsing. And, since LRLs are nothing more than dowsing rods, the same thing goes for LRLs. But LRLs are nothing more, and therefore no better, than dowsing rods; and the so-called "electronics" added to dowsing rods, which are then called "LRLs," are totally useless and therefore worthless. Furthermore, no LRL or MFD on the market has ever been Scientifically proven to the World to actually find anything."

I will add that, since the so-called "MFDs" require the use of dowsing rods, that the same statement applies to them.

And, since the burden of proof is always upon the claimant, it is up to you to prove your claims, rather than up to anyone else to "disprove" them. However there actually is an abundance of evidence that LRLs don't work, as in the following: A Dozen Points Proving LRL Fraud, seeing as these points have never been rationally refuted.

While at the same time, there is no evidence whatsoever that LRLs do work at all.

Anecdotal stories and letters are not proof, either by common sense or court evidence.

Since anyone who insisted on continually claiming to have a working device would happily stand up and prove it to the World, I challenge you to do so, or back off and apologize for making false claims to the public. This is your opportunity to do so, and settle this issue right now, if it is truly important to you, and if you really want to.

If you need some suggestions on how to go about proving your claims, here are some: A Scientific Test for LRLs.

If you cannot Scientifically prove your claims openly to the World, or if you simply refuse to try, then you have no grounds on which to complain.

You can either stand and deliver now, or sit down and quit whining.

Which will it be?

ref, Public Proof: ABC 20/20 news documentary 1986 (Scientist report their discovery with the aid of MFG)

EE, despite my honoring your demands for showing you where to find documented Scientific proof to the world, as well as the name of the Earth Scientist, who explained the MFD-HID physics being employed in most LRL's today, you continue to falsely infer that myself, other members of this forum, and successful Treasure Hunter/ Salvors who are finding an recovering Treasure with the use of LRL's, as being liars.

Who do you think you are, and by what authority are you permitted to continue this charade to degrade Treasure Hunters, and members of this forum?

Your arguments have been answered. One, of numerous references of documented Scientific proof to the world has been provided so your arguments are no longer valid. Anything more from you can be considered harassment, and interference to the normal sharing of information with those who have a mutual interest in the subject.

Do your research, then come back and make your apologies to the moderator, and members of this forum who you seem determined to discredit publicly, and generate agitation by any unscrupulous means possible.

Best wishes to you for a kinder, non-prejudice New Year! humble

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EddieR~

Why can't the promoters of the pseudoscientific method agree on whether or not a LRL'er would publicize a working LRL? One day they say that if there was one that actually worked, they would not hide it, they would bring it into the public. Then, they claim (of course they will call it a "counterclaim" in order to escape showing proof of their opinion) that if a person had a working LRL, they would keep quiet about it and just go find everything for themselves.

Wonder why that is?

Treasure Hunters by nature are a bunch of people with secrets..When I was a gold dredger where I was working was on a need to know basis. Even my wife only knew where my truck would be parked and if I was going to be upstream or downstream from it. On this board I only tell part of what I know.
I assume that if someone wants to use a LRL to treasure hunt they will be smart enough to learn the skills that are needed. Every day people make their own decisions about how they spend their money and what and how they want to enjoy this hobby...70 plus people have come to this board and told the world about the decision that they made..Art

 

[EE THr]

ref, Public Proof: ABC 20/20 news documentary 1986 (Scientist report their discovery with the aid of MFG)

EE, despite my honoring your demands for showing you where to find documented Scientific proof to the world, as well as the name of the Earth Scientist, who explained the MFD-HID physics being employed in most LRL's today, you continue to falsely infer that myself, other members of this forum, and successful Treasure Hunter/ Salvors who are finding an recovering Treasure with the use of LRL's, as being liars.

Who do you think you are, and by what authority are you permitted to continue this charade to degrade Treasure Hunters, and members of this forum?

Your arguments have been answered. One, of numerous references of documented Scientific proof to the world has been provided so your arguments are no longer valid. Anything more from you can be considered harassment, and interference to the normal sharing of information with those who have a mutual interest in the subject.

Do your research, then come back and make your apologies to the moderator, and members of this forum who you seem determined to discredit publicly, and generate agitation by any unscrupulous means possible.

Best wishes to you for a kinder, non-prejudice New Year! humble

Why don't you post a link to your alleged 20/20 video? Why don't you post your "NASA guy" letter?

Anyway, television shows have been fooled before, and anyone can write a letter. They already caught one astronaught-turned-politician engaging in foul play, so a NASA background means nothing.

You are falsely accusing me of degrading "treasure hunters." I have never said anything about treasure hunters.

Your statement of "numerous references of documented Scientific proof to the world has been provided," is an utterly false statement. However, if you can show this to be true, I will apologize.



Here, however, is documented evidence that LRLs, MFD, and HID devices are totally fraudulent---

Excerpted from an official report from the U.S. Department of Justice---

"There is a rather large community of people around the world that believes in dowsing: the ancient practice of using forked sticks, swinging rods, and pendulums to look for underground water and other materials. These people believe that many types of materials can be located using a variety of dowsing methods. Dowsers claim that the dowsing device will respond to any buried anomalies, and years of practice are needed to use the device with discrimination (the ability to cause the device to respond to only those materials being sought). Modern dowsers have been developing various new methods to add discrimination to their devices. These new methods include molecular frequency discrimination (MFD) and harmonic induction discrimination (HID). MFD has taken the form of everything from placing a xerox copy of a Polaroid photograph of the desired material into the handle of the device, to using dowsing rods in conjunction with frequency generation electronics (function generators). None of these attempts to create devices that can detect specific materials such as explosives (or any materials for that matter) have been proven successful in controlled double-blind scientific tests. In fact, all testing of these inventions has shown these devices to perform no better than random chance.

"Things to look for when dealing with “new technologies" that may well be a dowsing device are words like molecular frequency discrimination, harmonic induction discrimination, and claims of detecting small objects at large distances. Many of these devices require no power to operate (most real technology requires power). Suspect any device that uses a swinging rod that is held nearly level, pivots freely and “indicates” the material being sought by pointing at it.

"Statements that the device requires extensive training by the factory, the device is difficult to use, and not everyone can use the device, are often made to allow the manufacturer a way of blaming the operator for the device’s failure to work. Another often used diversion is that scientists and engineers cannot understand the operation of the device or the device operates on principles that have been lost or forgotten by the scientific community.

"In general, any legitimate manufacturer...will eagerly seek evaluation of their device’s performance by scientific and engineering laboratories."



So, if you want to continue whining, I guess you will have to complain about the Feds. Good luck with that!

 

[EE THr]

...70 plus people have come to this board and told the world about the decision that they made..Art

You keep talking about these "70 people." I only see a half dozen or so, and they are all LRL promoters.

Please post a list of these 70 people, to back up this claim.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE THr~

You keep talking about these "70 people." I only see a half dozen or so, and they are all LRL promoters.

Please post a list of these 70 people, to back up this claim.

Gee guy...Like Carl and the other skeptics told you..do some research before you post...Art

 

[humble]

EE, for your information, I am a Professional Treasure Hunter/ salvor and your ridiculous inflammatory remarks and allegations have been aimed at me as well as other Treasure Hunters and Prospectors on this forum. It is listed as a Treasure Hunting website. I still don't understand why you are permitted to flame this forum?

Do your research and learn the truth for yourself if you don't believe me. That would be the honest thing to do.The author of your so called Government report has appeared on these forums under a myriad of aliases, making false allegations as well. The original so called Government report specifically named a single user/seller of MFD & HID products. It was legally challenged and the so called report was modified, omitting the name of the seller for reasons of libel. It's likely you already know this.

Where's your logic? If this was a government sanction against the product and the seller, why was the report changed, and why hasn't the Government charged that individual with a felony and prosecuted him to the fullest extent of the law, and put them out of business. With your blessings, of course.

Your refusal to do your own research, irrational logic, insults to our intelligence, and speaking with a prejudiced tongue certainly begs the question, what is your purpose for posting BS comments against Treasure Hunters & Prospectors who use LRL? humble

 

[EE THr]

EE, for your information, I am a Professional Treasure Hunter/ salvor and your ridiculous inflammatory remarks and allegations have been aimed at me as well as other Treasure Hunters and Prospectors on this forum. It is listed as a Treasure Hunting website. I still don't understand why you are permitted to flame this forum?

Do your research and learn the truth for yourself if you don't believe me. That would be the honest thing to do.The author of your so called Government report has appeared on these forums under a myriad of aliases, making false allegations as well. The original so called Government report specifically named a single user/seller of MFD & HID products. It was legally challenged and the so called report was modified, omitting the name of the seller for reasons of libel. It's likely you already know this.

Where's your logic? If this was a government sanction against the product and the seller, why was the report changed, and why hasn't the Government charged that individual with a felony and prosecuted him to the fullest extent of the law, and put them out of business. With your blessings, of course.

Your refusal to do your own research, irrational logic, insults to our intelligence, and speaking with a prejudiced tongue certainly begs the question, what is your purpose for posting BS comments against Treasure Hunters & Prospectors who use LRL? humble

No, Dell, "flaming" is when someone gets hostile, like the LRL promoters to when asked simple, common sense questions.

So, who are you suggesting is the author of that DOJ report?

 

[aarthrj3811]

I wish a happy new year to all treasure hunters..May you have more free time to enjoy you hobby..Art

 

[EE THr]

Dell already proved the MFD's work in front of James Randi. I don't recall the exact numbers, but I think there were ten or twelve holes in a circle. Someone would place a gold target in one of the holes. Dell found the target something like seven out of ten times. Then they try to lie and say that's not good enough odds. Bull! That's like winning a small lottery. And even if you miss nine out of ten, it's still a wonderful treasure hunting tool. You can read the treatise at http://www.debunkingskeptics.com

I did a page search on the link, nothing comes up about Dell, MFD, or anything related.

If you are going to link to alleged evidence, link directly to the correct page or article, rather than non-existant information.

 

[EE THr]

I think the big stink the skeptics have with LRL's is they assume it is dowsing. They don't know that and it's not true. It does take skill to use an LRL. Almost everyone can learn but some people believe they can't learn because they never learned to dowse, either. But it's not dowsing and you don't have to know how to dowse to use an LRL. Many dowsers actually have a harder time learning, so that's a phony excuse in the first place.

I don't know who this ee thr is, but I suspect he is the same guy who hogs another LRL skeptic forum. As I recall an LRL manufacturer from Australia loaned him an LRL (that some people claim is more dowsing than LRL) and he was unable to use it. He even refused my help claiming if he couldn't do it without help, it was a fraud. Well, I've never see anywhere that a skeptic is guaranteed to be able to learn how to use one, to learn the necessary skills. You do have to learn the skills because it requires your body response. I am only left to assume he had no intention of learning in the first place--he refused my help. As I recall he said he shouldn't have to learn any skills to use it. That's the phony skeptic logic for you.

Your statement about LRLs being different than dowsing, slides off the tongue very smoothly, but it discounts the fact that some LRL promoters say that it is "electronically enhanced dowsing," while others insist that it is not. Make up your minds, huh?

At any rate, arguing over whether or not some imaginary devices are dowsing or not, certainly does not prove that LRLs work. That is just another attempt to substitute verbage for actual proof of permormance. It's the proof by performance that the LRL promoters always avoid. Your illogical argument is merely a good example of the standard tactic of creating a diversion, in order to not confront the fact that no LRL on the market has ever been proven to the World to actually find anything. If you have properly documented evidence to the contrary, then I will retract my statement and apologize.

I'm all ears....



P.S. I don't read or post on any other LRL forums. Sorry.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~
P

.S. I don't read or post on any other LRL forums. Sorry.

Sorry EE...You just caught your self again..Art

 

[EE THr]

The lies and deception about Dell's demonstration was that he only got 7 out of 10. That's a huge fat lie. Each trial the odds were 10 or 12 to 1 against him.

Again, your documentation is lacking. Without that, it's just idle talk....

 

[EE THr]

~EE~
P

.S. I don't read or post on any other LRL forums. Sorry.

Sorry EE...You just caught your self again..Art

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. And I doubt that you do, either!

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. And I doubt that you do, either!

We know that you have no idea about what you have posted... It is hard to know what is true when most of the things you claim are all false...Art

 

[EE THr]

~EE~

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. And I doubt that you do, either!

We know that you have no idea about what you have posted... It is hard to know what is true when most of the things you claim are all false...Art

Wrong again, Art. I make no claims. There you go misstating again....

LRL promoters use only verbage as Social Proof, because they can never produce any Real Proof. But there actually are many Known Facts About LRLs, which they always ignore. Yet they continually demand proof from debunkers, while also ignoring A Dozen Points Proving LRL Fraud, even though they are fully aware that these points have never been rationally refuted.​