Cape Canaveral 16th century wrecks; research needed

[ourhistory153]

I found a treasure map for sale in St, Augustine which listed some interesting shipwrecks in my area. Mind you, this
map is just one of the those commercially produced products marketed for tourists so it is nothing to get excited
about but I am curious to its accuracy. Has anybody heard of the these shipwrecks?

1) 1570 Vizacyo wrecked near Ais, richly ladened and the
Indians of the King of Ais salvaged a Great deal of her
treasure.

2)Armada of Nueva Espana 1556


3) 1554 the ship San Estavan of Farfari sank near Ais, ricly laden
with gold and silver.

Also finding images of coins from these ship would be interesting. Also interesting to
note that these wrecks are just over 40 years after the landing of Ponce de Leon in
1513.

-RKO

 

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[mad4wrecks]

Ray: the wrecks that you mention came from a book (or books) published by Bob Marx of Indialantic, FL.

Here is a link to a listing of some of his books:

http://classicdivebooks.customer.netspace.net.au/oeclassics-a-marks.html

By the way, the 1554 wreck listed as lost near Ais (Florida), was actually part of a fleet that wrecked off Padre island, Texas, and those wrecks were salvaged in the 1960's.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/etpfe

Regards, Tom Gidus

 

[ivan salis]

there is talk that the 1618 * hondurain treasure fleets --treasure vessels sank near the 1715 fleet sites

yep padre island , texas got the 1554 fleet wrecks * --note --- if you look at the "degree line" that padre island , texas is at you will see if you trace it sideways over to florida -- marx book lists it on same "degree line" if one looks at the florida coast -- this was is why the mix up in marx 's research occured ***when he read it in the spanish archives as being lost at that "degree mark" -- he thought it was at that "degree mark" was on florida's east coast - instead of being padre island , texas.

 

[mad4wrecks]

You are welcome Ray.

 

[TerryC]

If you want to research spanish wrecks.... learn spanish! Then you can research "the source" in the Spanish archives. Who knows, with a good command of spanish, your talent will command a price. TTC

 

[ivan salis]

si-- its a good thing to learn spanish if you want to read documents written in spanish -- note 16th century spanish is a lot like speaking "old english" --its not 'modern" spanish -- it is not that easy as the documents are faded out , the scrallish type writing is often difficult to read and it's general tone and word useage is very archaic in nature.

 

[TerryC]

si-- its a good thing to learn spanish if you want to read documents written in spanish -- note 16th century spanish is a lot like speaking "old english" --its not 'modern" spanish -- it is not that easy as the documents are faded out , the scrallish type writing is often difficult to read and it's general tone and word useage is very archaic in nature.

Modern Spanish, old Spanish, doesn't matter. Robtert Marx, Fisher, etc, they ALL employe lots of "readers" to sort things out. Anyone that can decypher the old transcrpts has a talent your would-be treasure hunter pays for. TTC

 

[ivan salis]

I know --I do research --its a art reading the old stuff.

 

[ourhistory153]

Ray: the wrecks that you mention came from a book (or books) published by Bob Marx of Indialantic, FL.

Here is a link to a listing of some of his books:

http://classicdivebooks.customer.netspace.net.au/oeclassics-a-marks.html

By the way, the 1554 wreck listed as lost near Ais (Florida), was actually part of a fleet that wrecked off Padre island, Texas, and those wrecks were salvaged in the 1960's.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/etpfe

Regards, Tom Gidus

Thanks for all the great insights. Recently, I met an university professor who teaches students to read Spanish writing. I'm trying to get them to do some interpretations on a map made of the area by a 17th century Spanish explorer. If anybody wants to look at the image of the map and give me an interpretation of what they think the Spanish writing on it is, let me know and I will share it with them.

Speaking of treasure, did anybody read that one of the guides from Kip Wagner's Real Eight group that one of the pirates (maybe Jennings) kept his treasure in a block house in Cape Canaveral? I bought this auction guide regarding the 1715 treasure and it mentioned this in a narrative but I have not found any secondary sources to back this up.

Anybody aware of any interesting finds in the Cape Canaveral/Cocoa Beach area?

-RKO

 

[ourhistory153]

By the way, the 1554 wreck listed as lost near Ais (Florida), was actually part of a fleet that wrecked off Padre island, Texas, and those wrecks were salvaged in the 1960's.

http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/etpfe

Regards, Tom Gidus

I'm a little confused by this part, Tom. At first I thought it meant that the map had a bogus entry because if their fleet wrecked off the coast
of Texas in the Gulf then how would one ship venture off course and end up sinking off Cape Canaveral? Is that what you meant, that the map
had a bogus entry for this wreck off Cape Canaveral? When I first read this I thought the info from the link would tell me but it doesn't.

Awesome wreck though. The early one's like this are interesting as the Spanish were in their learning curve at this time.

-RKO

 

[ivan salis]

marx thought the degree listed in the old spanish document he found in the archives was for florida 's east coast --it wasn't , it was for padre island in texas --- follow the degree line --you will see padre island * at the degree listed in marx's book as a "florida wreck" --thats where the fleet actually wrecked at padre island, texas ,not in florida -- quite simply put -- a simple screw up --no one is perfect , we are all just humans.

 

[ourhistory153]

marx thought the degree listed in the old spanish document he found in the archives was for florida 's east coast --it wasn't , it was for padre island in texas --- follow the degree line --you will see padre island * at the degree listed in marx's book as a "florida wreck" --thats where the fleet actually wrecked at padre island, texas ,not in florida -- quite simply put -- a simple screw up --no one is perfect , we are all just humans.

I lean towards Bob Marx's theory though. Why would Spanish treasure fleet end up in Texas? The treasure fleet shipments were to catch the Gulf
stream which flowed along the eastern seaboard back to Spain. Starting in Vera Cruz Mexico and collated and beginning their voyage from Havanna
Cuba. It must have been a huge Hurricane to blow them that far off course. Has this been well researched and sourced?

-RKO

 

[ivan salis]

AH MY FREIND ourhistory 153 --one needs to know the historical routes and navigation methods of the spanish treasure fleets to properly understand this , they caught the gulf stream only after they came from mexico to cuba * (it was used to go up floridas east coast after leaving havana ) --the way they travelled from mexico to get cuba at that time frame was by hugging the coastline -- and using "visible" landmarks --navagating by "dead reckoning" as it is known by today --the spanish of that time did not sail straight accross the gulf of mexico * , when they went from mexico to cuba * they cruised the coastlines going mexico to texas to louisanna to alabama to florida down floridas west coast then to cuba ---once one understands the routes they took--- one can easily understand how they wound up off of padre island texas * -- only much later on when they were able to properly fix their longitude did ships navagatiors give up on "dead reckoning" as the main means of navagation

that is why the spanish tried to put a colony in pensacola , florida * --it was to be a rest /restore / repair stopping point for the treasure fleets during their coast hugging trip from mexico to havana

if one looks at the latitude line * of padre island , texas one can clearly see it lines up perfectly with the latitude listed by marx in his book as a "florida wreck" --( plus the actual wrecks have been found there ) so clearly it a simple mistake , a lot like the "east , west" translation error he made that once it was corrected allowed mel fisher to quickly find the atocha , a short time afterwards -- hell no one is perfect --I will however go on the record as saying bob marx is damn good and has found much more treasure by far than I ever hope to be able to and is a living icon of treasure salvaging , but hes still human after all, and we as humans can and do make errors now and then.

 

[JvilleHunter]

Dont know if this is going to pan out but I was just given (hopefully) access to MD the shores of cape canaveral.....anyone know of a spot on that shore to start?

JvilleHunter

 

[ivan salis]

yes