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Case of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines v. Kingdom of Spain

ResearcherMark said:
I understand the location was given to Spainish authorities. I think the judge told/ordered them to do that. If it wasn't the exact location it was pretty darn close, enough to prove the site is in international waters!

To the poster who stated "sand had been blown away from the cannon". Hmmm, how do you know that? Were you there?? Don't you think it possible that was the way the crew came across it?

M
Hi ResearcherMark, I noticed you are new, Firstly Welcome, and you need to Read ( Odyssey Marine Article) Posted by Jeff.
I don't know of any information of the site being disclosed to the Spanish government.
I do know that the two judges reviewed all the Information, And agreed it was the Mercedes. And a question I have been asking Jeff for years !
WHY DIDN'T ODYSSEY BRING UP A CANNON ! They had the ROV over the cannon and other Important objects like the ships dinner plates.
This would have left no doubt.
Ossy
 
trinidad said:
Ok Vox, lets stop it here but remember it was you who started this thread. I almost cant wait for the news you have for us.
And one thing to Ossy: I don't know even one example of an untouched shipwreck which exact location has been released by their founders. Even in "scientific" shipwrecks, with no monetary worth, their locations has been kept secret. I'd do the same. If there is some smarts guys that only with an approximate position of a site try to reclaim the property of that site, imagine what they could do with the GPS position. (Here I'm talking, for instance, about L. A. V., an spanish "treasurehunter" , that claims his rights of finder of "almost everything" lying on the bottom of the Strait of Gibraltar).
About the cannons: on the site there was a number of bronze cannons that were far away of the number of them aboard of La Mercedes. The rest, 17 iron cannons almost corroded to graphite, are impossible to identify. The bronze cannons, even admitting that they were the type of those that were aboard La Mercedes, are also the same type of some other hundreds of bronze cannons that at those times were aboard a lot of ships that sailed the Atlantic every day. There is not a number, mark of sign that ties even only one of these bronze cannons to La Mercedes.
If you read the papers about this case, there is more information about what is not this shipwreck than about what it is.
You and me (a people who visit this forum) know how hard it can be (sometimes even impossible) to positively identify a shipwreck. And Spain tried (and did in a first step) to convince the Court that it is La Mercedes just with a few coins exam and a timeshape coincidence on five bronze cannons, a timeshape that you can find in almost any naval museum in Spain. And I can tell you that all these bronze cannons in spanish museums don't come from La Mercedes.
I hope one day everything will be clear and finally we all know everything about this shipwreck.
trinidad, You play just as much cloak and dagger as Vox. You seem to know what you are talking about! What ship do you think it might be? All the coin dates coincide with the Mercedes, and as Vox said the Spanish kept great records of ships manifests.
That amount of coins was not shipped every day, and you have a time line.
Back in Peru, they would also have records of that amount of money !
Ossy
 
Ossy... It makes no difference whether it's the Mercedes or not. The case before the court is whether or not Spain can claim sovereign immunity on a commercial cargo. Odyssey salvaged the cargo, not anything from the ship. The canon were part of the ship.

P.S. Spain was given the exact location at least two years ago.
 
Jeff K said:
Ossy... It makes no difference whether it's the Mercedes or not. The case before the court is whether or not Spain can claim sovereign immunity on a commercial cargo. Odyssey salvaged the cargo, not anything from the ship. The canon were part of the ship.

P.S. Spain was given the exact location at least two years ago.
I think you have answered my question, Why they didn't touch the cannons ! You say it makes no difference if it was the Mercedes or not
I does for Spain. The Historical importance is more to Spain than a bunch of silver coins.
And if Odyssey win this case they will use this to up the price on the coins.
You would have some data from Odyssey, what ship do they think it could be???
Ossy
 
Ossy, I don't have any hypothesis about what is the name of the ship. I just have doubts about the location of the stuff recovered by OME and the place where La Mercedes sunk. And as well as Spain have records of ship manifest, OME has too, and this information is not definitive yet to identify the shipwreck. I have doubts and what Spain did in this complicated case, didn't clear a bit to me. Plus, what Spain said and did in different moments of this case makes me feel uncomfortable with what it looks like a reasonable version of what happened.

Ossy, you say that the Historical importance is more to Spain than a bunch of silver coins. I'm not sure about it. There is a few of spanish shipwrecks that have been "recovered" in some way in different countries and Spain didn't say a word about it. The interest of Spain about La Mercedes comes after the Black Swan discovery was released. Before, Spain was told by OME what was going on and shown no interest at all. And the same for some other shipwrecks in different areas of the spanish shore. I'm not sure about what is important to Spain when we talk about underwater heritage. It's not the same thing what something looks like and what it really is.
Finally, I think that the "relationship" Spain-OME, that was satisfactory in its beginning, has been poisoned at some point and I would like to known when and who dedicated his efforts to it. I have my own guess but time will say.
Vox, why you show surprise? You defend Louise's position before Spain. Ok. I just bring you here a hint of what the Louise was doing in Cadiz, that was, at least, nothing related to the marine environment.
 
Trinidad,
in the 80-90's the Italian company MSS was responsible for conducting surveys for the construction of the bridge on the Messina Strait. The company commissioned a detailed study of the underwater archaeological to the underwater archeology company "Aquarius", which I was legal representative in Spain.
Which means this: it is recommended to undertake a study before and know the heritage that could preserve from the civil engineering works.
Cheers
 
That's true, Vox, but it's obvious. The problem for the Louise case is that there was no civil engineering works here (and wont be) and much less in the prospected area. Anyway, being you a "professional opinion" and a fair specialist in "proper permissions" I suppose you are aware about the kind of "papers" you have to get before a prospection (civil engineering or archaeological surveying) and the authorities you have to talk with and obtain an agreement from before "putting a feet" on the water. More at those days in Spain and much more in Andalusia. Now, with the last weak argument that you bring here, I see clearly your grade of implication in this case. Gee, things are worse than they appear. Be careful and watch your back. All the people implicated in this issue is blaming the neighbor, from the top to the buttom, but the last one in doing that wont have a neighbor to blame and will eat the whole piece. Think about your self. Take care. I wish you the best.
 
trinidad said:
That's true, Vox, but it's obvious. The problem for the Louise case is that there was no civil engineering works here (and wont be) and much less in the prospected area. Anyway, being you a "professional opinion" and a fair specialist in "proper permissions" I suppose you are aware about the kind of "papers" you have to get before a prospection (civil engineering or archaeological surveying) and the authorities you have to talk with and obtain an agreement from before "putting a feet" on the water. More at those days in Spain and much more in Andalusia. Now, with the last weak argument that you bring here, I see clearly your grade of implication in this case. Gee, things are worse than they appear. Be careful and watch your back. All the people implicated in this issue is blaming the neighbor, from the top to the buttom, but the last one in doing that wont have a neighbor to blame and will eat the whole piece. Think about your self. Take care. I wish you the best.

Trinidad,
my lack of involvement with the Louisa is well established and does not bother me too much, because I have very clean my conscience, unlike other people who gave "specific orders". But as I said, not anticipate events, and let the court found, and ...... we'll see.
Cheers VV
 

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