Case of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines v. Kingdom of Spain

[Vox veritas]

Finally, Vox, we both agree. Let's don't prejudice anybody. I didn't do it with the Louise's case. I just said that if you talk about OME-Sussex case in those terms, how should be qualified the Louise's. I didn't say a word to defend OME but to defend the clarification of what happened and still happens in Sussex and Black Swan cases. That's all. But don't pretend to lapidate OME (or any other) before a sentence from a Court and at the same time ask for prudence and not prejudging Louise's case without an answer from somebody that has read all your post here in this forum. That's all.
PD: Vox, please, don't get mad. This is just a good talking among forum friends.

Will be interesting to read the book of Pipe Sarmiento's "Odyssey File. " I am sure that many of the doubts and questions will be known.

http://www.pipesarmiento.net/

 

[jeff k]

Sarmiento is the biggest LIAR in Spain. I'm not surprised you two are friends.

 

[Vox veritas]

Sarmiento is the biggest LIAR in Spain. I'm not surprised you two are friends.

Jeff,
I am a friend of the truth and hate liars. Let's read the book and then judge.
Cheers VV

 

[trinidad]

I'm not going to spend an euro on this book. Mr. Sarmiento doesn't like the truth, the grammar, the orthography nor the spelling (in spanish, I mean). And I can prove it. I have his previous book. A boring brick not even tested with the Wordperfect spell checking and full of historical inaccuracies and erroneous dates. And probably he will appear on the book as a hero or something like that, sailing on his boat over the silvered waves of the Mediterranean with his silvered hair moved by the soft wind of west. I'm yawning at the same time I start talking about him. Vox, this guy must kiss every step you make. You have your mouth shut and you recommends his books. God, you really are a good friend. I cant help to feel some envy about it.

 

[trinidad]

And a curious thing on the web page of Mr. Sarmiento. The only link it doesn't work is "El engaño de La Mercedes" (The Mercedes´deception). Maybe Mr. Sarmiento wrote more than recommendable and now he erases the trace? Maybe this text is full of lies and mistakes and he doesn't like to show it on his web page? A technical problem? Could be. Thanks internet we can read the full text and laugh a little with the jokes of this paladin of the truth, that in a few lines left Spain without arguments on its trial against OME (the Mercedes lies close to the Portugal's shore, so is not the Mercedes from where OME took the coins), and "helping" Spain a little bit more, reproduces this quote from the Spains´lawyer James Goold: "Sometimes, what interests Spain may be far from the truth." Well, things are getting clear day by day. And he keeps insisting that the recovery of the coins was in front of Sotogrande, with the Guardia Civil, the spanish Navy and Mr. Sarmiento, this catcher on the sea, around but a little misleaded. Incroyable, mon ami!
If somebody wants to read the text:
http://www.pipesarmiento.net/pdfs/sotogrande/EL_ENGANO_DE_LA_MERCEDES.pdf

 

[jeff k]

Here's a translation of that garbage.

THE DECEPTION OF MERCEDES

You know that the GJ has been
counting how many developments have occurred on
For treasure hunters Odyssey, and we did
because the main looting has occurred against
Sotogrande, and because the second boat used
to track our funds was docked several
months in our port. But most importantly
citizens in the area know firsthand the
deception designed to free government
accountability at all useless and undocumented
who participated in this long plundering of about
ten years' duration.
The theory of the frigate Mercedes to be removed from the
manga is an unprecedented absurdity: first, because
Portuguese archaeologists and tried to find
several times without any result, working with
the evidence extracted from their files, and the boat
lies a few miles off the coast of Faro, not 1200
meters deep and more than 200 miles as
says the Spanish Government through the mouth of
responsible for Culture. Moreover, and as stated in the
lusos files, the frigate broke into pieces when
burned its powder magazine, and his remains were scattered
several miles. Moreover, our leaders
seems to be bent on forgetting the ten years that
Odyssey Marine Exploration vessels were
working in Spanish waters of the Mediterranean
denying that they were our own and playing cat and mouse
with security forces. Now, so
miraculous, it points to a possibility based on the
disappearance of the main vessel Odyssey Marine
for "five days" in which the system switched off
AISLIVE positioning and we could not follow. According to
the Government, just in those few HUNDRED HOURS
hackers were able to find the wreck that
not found in fifty years the Portuguese, and took
from 1,200 meters deep nothing more
less than half a million coins and other objects
more bulky, difficult to extract, something ridiculous and
insult to the intelligence of those who know something about
these complicated rescues.
This comic can try to cover the
responsibilities of the "banda" foreign to
endeavored to give a permit after another to these pirates to
who violated continuously and without any control
our territorial waters, despite the constant
warnings that they were banned by
both the Spanish Armada and the Maritime Service
Civil Guard. But they could further the aspirations of Mr.
Pons, Director of the Office for Cooperation with Europe
America, who had committed
British and Americans to let them work on
an imaginary British shipwreck, the Sussex, the
true cover of this pillaging, in exchange for certain
advantages in the negotiations on the conflict
Gibraltar. In the end, no progress was made with merchants
the Rock, and the pirates took all of our sea
as wanted, a cutting joke
Anglo-Saxon.
With the ridiculous "play of the Mercedes," which also
Odyssey Marine also denies, but defended tooth and
sword by the Government since the beginning of this
scandal, using as a speaker told the newspaper El Pais,
hope to divert attention to the Atlantic, leaving
dumb and silent ten years of shame and
responsibilities of any kind from the class
policy.
Therefore, and in a very meaningful, counsel for
Spain before the Court in Tampa said James Goold
Madrid last week: "Sometimes, what interests
Spain may be far from the truth. " But
impeccable work of the Court of the Line
Design continues its search path undeterred
responsibilities, and the founders of Odyssey
are accused of plundering our waters, and there is a
search and arrest warrant against them. Manuel Melero,
Security Alderman San Roque, is taking steps
very important by the Corporation San Roque
to know the truth. And soon
we will have news, and readers of this Medium
be the first to know.

 

[jeff k]

Sarmiento claims it only took Odyssey 5 days to find the Mercedes... WRONG!

Here's a log kept by a friend showing Odyssey's ships when they started the search. We followed this on AIS Live. The Ocean Alert did the survey, and the Explorer did the inspection of the anomalies. Both ships went out of range when they were about 30nm west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

March 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on March 30

March 23 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 4

April 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 15

April 6 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 9

April 17 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on May 12

April 28 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 30

 

[Vox veritas]

I'm not going to spend an euro on this book. Mr. Sarmiento doesn't like the truth, the grammar, the orthography nor the spelling (in spanish, I mean). And I can prove it. I have his previous book. A boring brick not even tested with the Wordperfect spell checking and full of historical inaccuracies and erroneous dates. And probably he will appear on the book as a hero or something like that, sailing on his boat over the silvered waves of the Mediterranean with his silvered hair moved by the soft wind of west. I'm yawning at the same time I start talking about him. Vox, this guy must kiss every step you make. You have your mouth shut and you recommends his books. God, you really are a good friend. I cant help to feel some envy about it.

Trinidad,
everyone has an opinion and this is the story of the never-ending.
Let the courts decide, new claims arise (possibly), books published and then we can go deeply judge. And we'll talk!
Cheers VV

 

[Vox veritas]

Sarmiento claims it only took Odyssey 5 days to find the Mercedes... WRONG!

Here's a log kept by a friend showing Odyssey's ships when they started the search. We followed this on AIS Live. The Ocean Alert did the survey, and the Explorer did the inspection of the anomalies. Both ships went out of range when they were about 30nm west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

March 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on March 30

March 23 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 4

April 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 15

April 6 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 9

April 17 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on May 12

April 28 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 30

Jeff,
I do not care where they found the treasure, but Odyssey, strangely never explained exhaustively "why and how" right there in the middle of nowhere.

 

[trinidad]

Vox dixit: "I do not care where they found the treasure, but Odyssey, strangely never explained exhaustively "why and how" right there in the middle of nowhere."

Well, one step takes us to another. Finally, for some reason, the big question in this issue, the place where the coins and stuff where recovered, doesn't mind anymore. Ok. It sounds strange, but ok.
And now, the big questions of this plot are: why in the middle of nowhere and how (in the middle of nowhere too, I suppose). That could have a very simple answer: because the stuff was there and because OME was able to do it. Occam would say that this is the most probable and the right explanation. But Vox goes beyond these obvious circumstances and put the mysterious side of this case: "... in the middle of nowhere...". Hmmm! Is he trying to suggest that OME has took the stuff from some other place, recovered secretly 17 tons of coins, put aboard the "treasure", sailed to "the middle of nowhere" and throw the stuff right there to recover it once again, recording the whole operation with deep and time information on the images? Well, it could be.., it could be... But as a friend of mine uses to say: "if my grandmother would have a handlebar and wheels, she would be a bike". Anything to prove the plot theory. I can´t imagine what Mr. Sarmiento would have write down on his last book....

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox dixit: "I do not care where they found the treasure, but Odyssey, strangely never explained exhaustively "why and how" right there in the middle of nowhere."

Well, one step takes us to another. Finally, for some reason, the big question in this issue, the place where the coins and stuff where recovered, doesn't mind anymore. Ok. It sounds strange, but ok.
And now, the big questions of this plot are: why in the middle of nowhere and how (in the middle of nowhere too, I suppose). That could have a very simple answer: because the stuff was there and because OME was able to do it. Occam would say that this is the most probable and the right explanation. But Vox goes beyond these obvious circumstances and put the mysterious side of this case: "... in the middle of nowhere...". Hmmm! Is he trying to suggest that OME has took the stuff from some other place, recovered secretly 17 tons of coins, put aboard the "treasure", sailed to "the middle of nowhere" and throw the stuff right there to recover it once again, recording the whole operation with deep and time information on the images? Well, it could be.., it could be... But as a friend of mine uses to say: "if my grandmother would have a handlebar and wheels, she would be a bike". Anything to prove the plot theory. I can´t imagine what Mr. Sarmiento would have write down on his last book....

Trinidad,
in my professional opinion. you continue with baseless arguments. I would like to know the name of the "magic wand" that made the miracle to find a 1, 100 meters deep and in the middle of the Atlantic 17 tons of coins and the ship which carried no shadow. These claims are an insult to human intelligence and professionals know that is absurd.
I have researched very thoroughly the years 1802, 1803, 1804 and 1805 when I got a permit from the Portuguese Navy just to find the Mercedes.
Checking accounts of the mint in Lima between 1802 and 1804 (since most of the currencies of the 17 tons were from this mint), we can know or missing on almost 550,000 pesos. Fortunately the Spanish colonial administration was extremely careful with the books of accounts (mint and custom).
When I have time I'll go check it.
Cheers VV

 

[ResearcherMark]

VV, "magic wand"? I think it was just good research. Nothing magic about it!

Mark

 

[Salvor6]

Not only good research but great search equipment like the Ocean Alert and Odyssey Explorer. What did you use for your search Vox? A rowboat and fishfinder? No wonder you didn't find it!

 

[trinidad]

Vox, what are you trying to say? When you say "magic wand", what do you mean? What are you suggesting? I suppose that behind that find there would be a lot of investigation. Somebody did it and somebody paid for it. It's the usual way, in my professional opinion (yes, I also have one). You say that the find and the absence of rests (I suppose you mean structures in wood), it's an insult to human intelligence. Well, your friend Mr. Sarmiento gives you a possibility (extracted from Mercedes´deception): "The theory of the frigate Mercedes...is an unprecedented absurdity: first, because Portuguese archaeologists have tried to find it several times without any result, working with the evidence extracted from their files, and the boat lies a few miles off the coast of Faro, not 1200 meters deep and more than 200 miles as says the Spanish Government through the mouth of responsible for Culture. Moreover, and as stated in the Portuguese files, the frigate broke into pieces when burned its powder store, and its remains were scattered several miles."
Plus: do I'd be a fool if I doubt that you founded what a lot of Portuguese's archaeologists didn't find after research in their historical files? Could it insult my intelligence? If your friend Sarmiento assures that the frigate disappeared in miles of pieces after explosion, could this pieces disappear after two hundred years? Could this kind of explosion have occurs in some other ship in his way to Spain? Does it insult your intelligence that a group of specialist sended by Spain talk about "no doubts" about the origin of the coins (The Mercedes) after a soft exam of a few of the items for less than a week? Vox, don't get insulted that easy.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Sarmiento claims it only took Odyssey 5 days to find the Mercedes... WRONG!

Here's a log kept by a friend showing Odyssey's ships when they started the search. We followed this on AIS Live. The Ocean Alert did the survey, and the Explorer did the inspection of the anomalies. Both ships went out of range when they were about 30nm west of the Straits of Gibraltar.

March 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on March 30

March 23 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 4

April 3 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 15

April 6 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 9

April 17 - Odyssey Explorer sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on May 12

April 28 - Ocean Alert sailed west into the Atlantic and returned on April 30

You would think by now, Odyssey would give the exact location, What do they have to hide
If you remember Jeff I posted some pictures from the site, courtesy of Diving Doc, which showed Odyssey had blown sand away from the cannons, which are on the Mercedes manifest as deleted pieces. This was also used by Spain to verified the Mercedes not just the coins.
Plus remember the fish in the picture that does not live at those depths !
I'm enjoying trinidad comments, Claudio if you worried about getting sued, just send me the info and I will post it under my name.
In my opinion both sides are telling lies.
Ossy

 

[Vox veritas]

Vox, what are you trying to say? When you say "magic wand", what do you mean? What are you suggesting? I suppose that behind that find there would be a lot of investigation. Somebody did it and somebody paid for it. It's the usual way, in my professional opinion (yes, I also have one). You say that the find and the absence of rests (I suppose you mean structures in wood), it's an insult to human intelligence. Well, your friend Mr. Sarmiento gives you a possibility (extracted from Mercedes´deception): "The theory of the frigate Mercedes...is an unprecedented absurdity: first, because Portuguese archaeologists have tried to find it several times without any result, working with the evidence extracted from their files, and the boat lies a few miles off the coast of Faro, not 1200 meters deep and more than 200 miles as says the Spanish Government through the mouth of responsible for Culture. Moreover, and as stated in the Portuguese files, the frigate broke into pieces when burned its powder store, and its remains were scattered several miles."
Plus: do I'd be a fool if I doubt that you founded what a lot of Portuguese's archaeologists didn't find after research in their historical files? Could it insult my intelligence? If your friend Sarmiento assures that the frigate disappeared in miles of pieces after explosion, could this pieces disappear after two hundred years? Could this kind of explosion have occurs in some other ship in his way to Spain? Does it insult your intelligence that a group of specialist sended by Spain talk about "no doubts" about the origin of the coins (The Mercedes) after a soft exam of a few of the items for less than a week? Vox, don't get insulted that easy.

Trinidad,
is open three court cases and other lawsuits may come, I can not give more clues by public media.
Other news will be released when all is resolved.
Cheers VV

 

[trinidad]

Ok Vox, lets stop it here but remember it was you who started this thread. I almost cant wait for the news you have for us.
And one thing to Ossy: I don't know even one example of an untouched shipwreck which exact location has been released by their founders. Even in "scientific" shipwrecks, with no monetary worth, their locations has been kept secret. I'd do the same. If there is some smarts guys that only with an approximate position of a site try to reclaim the property of that site, imagine what they could do with the GPS position. (Here I'm talking, for instance, about L. A. V., an spanish "treasurehunter" , that claims his rights of finder of "almost everything" lying on the bottom of the Strait of Gibraltar).
About the cannons: on the site there was a number of bronze cannons that were far away of the number of them aboard of La Mercedes. The rest, 17 iron cannons almost corroded to graphite, are impossible to identify. The bronze cannons, even admitting that they were the type of those that were aboard La Mercedes, are also the same type of some other hundreds of bronze cannons that at those times were aboard a lot of ships that sailed the Atlantic every day. There is not a number, mark of sign that ties even only one of these bronze cannons to La Mercedes.
If you read the papers about this case, there is more information about what is not this shipwreck than about what it is.
You and me (a people who visit this forum) know how hard it can be (sometimes even impossible) to positively identify a shipwreck. And Spain tried (and did in a first step) to convince the Court that it is La Mercedes just with a few coins exam and a timeshape coincidence on five bronze cannons, a timeshape that you can find in almost any naval museum in Spain. And I can tell you that all these bronze cannons in spanish museums don't come from La Mercedes.
I hope one day everything will be clear and finally we all know everything about this shipwreck.

 

[ResearcherMark]

I understand the location was given to Spainish authorities. I think the judge told/ordered them to do that. If it wasn't the exact location it was pretty darn close, enough to prove the site is in international waters!

To the poster who stated "sand had been blown away from the cannon". Hmmm, how do you know that? Were you there?? Don't you think it possible that was the way the crew came across it?

M

 

[trinidad]

Ah, one curiosity for all of us before this thread become dead: I add a picture of a notebook apprehended by the police (Guardia Civil) from the crew of the Louise. In theory, they, the Louise crew, were studying the environment in Cadiz Bay. Well, the letters that you see in capitals (SFJ) are the acronym of San Francisco Javier, a very rich shipwreck that it's believed to be at the area where the Louise was surveying. The coordinates that you see up above (with minutes and seconds erased), correspond to a place where there are some traces of "something", anything but an environment subject.
The picture was took from the official web page of Guardia Civil, years ago. This image doesn't exist anymore.
If I were Vox I would say: I dont believe in coincidences. But I´m not, so it could be just a coincidence.

 

[Vox veritas]

Ah, one curiosity for all of us before this thread become dead: I add a picture of a notebook apprehended by the police (Guardia Civil) from the crew of the Louise. In theory, they, the Louise crew, were studying the environment in Cadiz Bay. Well, the letters that you see in capitals (SFJ) are the acronym of San Francisco Javier, a very rich shipwreck that it's believed to be at the area where the Louise was surveying. The coordinates that you see up above (with minutes and seconds erased), correspond to a place where there are some traces of "something", anything but an environment subject.
The picture was took from the official web page of Guardia Civil, years ago. This image doesn't exist anymore.
If I were Vox I would say: I dont believe in coincidences. But I´m not, so it could be just a coincidence.

And ......