Charlie Miller...

[coazon de oro]

Also Miller had to know the exact dimension and thickness of the Trail stone heart and the depth of the upper stone trail heart's cavity, to make the Latin stone heart at the same dimension and to calculate the thickness of the Latin heart , which together with the Trail stone heart to fill the cavity no more that the tablet's surface level .
IMO very difficult to proceed if Miller didn't has the PSM at his disposition .

Yes, Miller was the first person outside of the Tumlinsons, who handled the PSM's. I believe he took a pencil tracing of them.

Homar

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Cry Of The Eagle: History And Legends Of The Cherokee Indians And Their Buried Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[deducer]

Howdy Marius,

the similarities may be because it comes from the same man, or simply a copycat.

If Miller profited from Travis, he may have been trying to profit from others.

Homar

The cursum perficio was first found tucked in a book that was originally found by Abe Reid, out in the mountains, who subsequently gave it to Al Reser, who then gave it to Jim Hatt. The book was discovered in the 1930's, way before Tumlinson ever came onto the scene.

 

[coazon de oro]

The cursum perficio was first found tucked in a book that was originally found by Abe Reid, out in the mountains, who subsequently gave it to Al Reser, who then gave it to Jim Hatt. The book was discovered in the 1930's, way before Tumlinson ever came onto the scene.

Thanks for clarifying that deducer, I don't keep notes on things that don't get my attention. I have studied that cursum perficio drawing, and have never seen how it could lead anywhere. The LH had to come after that, copying from it, and the PSM's to give it a sense of value. In my honest opinion it would not have been destroyed if it was real.

I know you and others believe in the LH, and Stone Crosses, I don't. They all came after Travis unearthed the PSM's. Had they come before, it would be different. The Stone Crosses are plainly Gringo made, no Spaniard, or Mexican would butcher the language that bad, not even the Mexican boy at the filling station. Not trying to change anyones mind, it's just the way I see it.

Homar

 

[deducer]

Thanks for clarifying that deducer, I don't keep notes on things that don't get my attention. I have studied that cursum perficio drawing, and have never seen how it could lead anywhere. The LH had to come after that, copying from it, and the PSM's to give it a sense of value. In my honest opinion it would not have been destroyed if it was real.

I know you and others believe in the LH, and Stone Crosses, I don't. They all came after Travis unearthed the PSM's. Had they come before, it would be different. The Stone Crosses are plainly Gringo made, no Spaniard, or Mexican would butcher the language that bad, not even the Mexican boy at the filling station. Not trying to change anyones mind, it's just the way I see it.

Homar

The LH was found at around the same time by Jacob Alexander who reportedly went back and looked around the area where TT claimed he found the Stone Maps. Bill Alexander allegedly said he found it laying on the ground and I've always found this to be suspect. Anyway, there is no Spanish on the LH.

The Spanish that is "butchered" on one of the Stone Crosses applies only to the last three words, and they are ordered that way for a very specific reason. Note that they are on top of one another.

 

[markmar]

Early modern Spanish language was little different than what we know today .

 

[coazon de oro]

The LH was found at around the same time by Bill Alexander who reportedly went back and looked around the area where TT claimed he found the Stone Maps. Bill Alexander allegedly said he found it laying on the ground and I've always found this to be suspect. Anyway, there is no Spanish on the LH.

The Spanish that is "butchered" on one of the Stone Crosses applies only to the last three words, and they are ordered that way for a very specific reason. Note that they are on top of one another.

Spelling mistakes are common mistakes in all languages, where the Spanish language gets butchered is on the gender. Unless you are raised speaking language, the gender is the hardest for most to learn. Take our friend Real de Tayopa who worked as a border patrol, and has lived in Mexico for around sixty years, he still has trouble with the gender of the language. On Garry Cundiff's comparision of the Treasure Chest stone known to be carved by Travis, and the PSM's, they overlooked the fact that Travis butchered the language with the wrong gender, and mixed English with Spanish. They were just comparing the letters, and failed to see that Travis was in fact incapable of having carved the PSM's.
Anyone raised speaking Spanish, no matter how illiterate, will not mistake the gender.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Early modern Spanish language was little different than what we know today .

The gender has not changed, you can verify it on all the letters sent to the King of Spain from the new world.

Homar

 

[markmar]

I believe the words on the Cross stone map , were about a shallow cave on the mountain . An anagrammar . Is the cave with the two room house ruin infront and marked with an Omega in the Trail stone map and the Horse stone map .
With this , the stone Cross map makes sense and proves how is attached to the stone maps set.

 

[deducer]

Spelling mistakes are common mistakes in all languages, where the Spanish language gets butchered is on the gender. Unless you are raised speaking language, the gender is the hardest for most to learn. Take our friend Real de Tayopa who worked as a border patrol, and has lived in Mexico for around sixty years, he still has trouble with the gender of the language. On Garry Cundiff's comparision of the Treasure Chest stone known to be carved by Travis, and the PSM's, they overlooked the fact that Travis butchered the language with the wrong gender, and mixed English with Spanish. They were just comparing the letters, and failed to see that Travis was in fact incapable of having carved the PSM's.
Anyone raised speaking Spanish, no matter how illiterate, will not mistake the gender.

Homar

Oops, I had forgotten the gender "errors," the el cueva and los iglesia.

They are the way they are for a reason, just as the word Iglesia is spelled Eglesia on the CP.

This was thought out carefully, over a long period of time.

 

[musician]

Sometimes difficult to see if a unusual spelling hides a message or not. With other cases don't forget, that the concept of a "correct" spelling was developed quite late in history. Regarding Waltz and german language it was late in the 19th century, between 1870 and 1880, long time after Waltz left.

 

[somehiker]

Spelling and grammatical "errors" in older text sources are common, and often the result of ethno-historical differences.
This subject is actually a topic of some debate in the study of early Mexican Indigenous manuscripts.

https://upcolorado.com/about-us/blog/item/3468-reading-beyond-form-in-historical-manuscripts

 

[Cubfan64]

The LH was found at around the same time by Bill Alexander who reportedly went back and looked around the area where TT claimed he found the Stone Maps. Bill Alexander allegedly said he found it laying on the ground and I've always found this to be suspect. Anyway, there is no Spanish on the LH.

The Spanish that is "butchered" on one of the Stone Crosses applies only to the last three words, and they are ordered that way for a very specific reason. Note that they are on top of one another.

Can you expound on the Bill Alexander story? My memory stinks these days but that name doesn't ring a bell with me. Who was he? Where did that story start? etc...

For what it's worth I guess this thread isn't going anywhere. Bill Hidden, Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson will remain enigmas for some reason - oh well.

 

[azdave35]

Can you expound on the Bill Alexander story? My memory stinks these days but that name doesn't ring a bell with me. Who was he? Where did that story start? etc...

For what it's worth I guess this thread isn't going anywhere. Bill Hidden, Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson will remain enigmas for some reason - oh well.

just a few more stone map nuts as far as i'm concerned

 

[deducer]

Can you expound on the Bill Alexander story? My memory stinks these days but that name doesn't ring a bell with me. Who was he? Where did that story start? etc...

For what it's worth I guess this thread isn't going anywhere. Bill Hidden, Charlie Miller and Rhodes Wilson will remain enigmas for some reason - oh well.

Page 339 of "Treasure Tales of the Superstitions" by Dr. Glover. Also, I got his name wrong- it's Jacob Alexander, not Bill Alexander. This story is also recounted by Jim Hatt on the other website. Both accounts also mention Bill Hidden was the one who destroyed the Latin Heart out of frustration, but not before Al Reser had taken a picture of it. Unfortunately that picture is gone; I searched high and low for it in Al Reser's collection.

While I agree that it isn't sensible to research anyone until we can definitively establish a connection between Charlie Miller and TT, I don't think this thread is necessarily a waste of time because it's morphed into an interesting discussion.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I wonder if that picture could be in Jim Hatt's collection which, as I understand it, is somewhere in storage in Apache Junction.

 

[deducer]

Howdy Marius,

the similarities may be because it comes from the same man, or simply a copycat.

If Miller profited from Travis, he may have been trying to profit from others.

Homar

I wanted to come back to this:

Marius does have a good point. For those that think it's a matter of "spelling error," the word los iglesia also exists on the cursum perficio except iglesia is spelled as Eglesia, and for a good reason. And as I have recounted, the CP parchment was discovered in the 1930's, way before any of those players, Charlie Miller, Travis Tumlinson, etc., came onto the scene.

The repeated use of los iglesia is related to the array of words on the descriptive Stone Cross, los being a "locator," which is arranged likewise, below:

........los
...someo
montana

So as to convey geographic information, the same information conveyed by the stepped "blocks" that the priest stands on, on the H/P stone, each block being wider and bigger, the lower you go. One is a side profile of said geographical information, the other is a front on view.

So the "church" e.g., the CP rock, "overlooks" said geographic formation. Somehiker can chime in on this if I've gotten that wrong.

 

[markmar]

deducer

You are right . Like the verses from the Priest map which we have to read them from bottom to top , in the same manner we have to read the words on the Cross map . They show the order we should see/find the landmarks and clues at the treasure site .
In the Priest stone map , the verse " esta bereda es peligroza " is for a different ( emergency ) path wich starts at the " fauces " in LH , and go up and around like is shown in the priest map at the number #1 . That path is at the top of all the others clues and could not be taken as a start point to the treasure room .
So , the order of the words in the Cross stone map should be read like this : Montana Someo Cueva Iglesia Tesoro . This is the geographical info which we could see/find , starting from lower level to the top . The clues from the Cross stone map are all in the upper stone Trail map .

 

[Dirt1955]

Deducer I recall the Jim Hatt story regarding Bill Hidden as you have recounted here. Kurt Painter and Gollum stick in my memory as possibly knowing where Jim Hatt research ended up. A lot of old postings on the other sites were taken down/disappeared over time. I am sure others on Tnet know where JH research ended up.

 

[Cubfan64]

Page 339 of "Treasure Tales of the Superstitions" by Dr. Glover. Also, I got his name wrong- it's Jacob Alexander, not Bill Alexander. This story is also recounted by Jim Hatt on the other website. Both accounts also mention Bill Hidden was the one who destroyed the Latin Heart out of frustration, but not before Al Reser had taken a picture of it. Unfortunately that picture is gone; I searched high and low for it in Al Reser's collection.

While I agree that it isn't sensible to research anyone until we can definitively establish a connection between Charlie Miller and TT, I don't think this thread is necessarily a waste of time because it's morphed into an interesting discussion.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, I wonder if that picture could be in Jim Hatt's collection which, as I understand it, is somewhere in storage in Apache Junction.

I don't recall Jim Hatt mentioning a Jacob Alexander and couldn't find that in any searches on that forum. I'll have to refresh my memory from Glover's book tonight.

I think Jim Hatt sent a number of people disc's containing some of his research, but as far as his "on the ground" files and such the only person I ever heard claim they had them was Kurt Painter, but he said a lot of things during his time on the forums. Haven't seen anything from him or his group "Double Jack" for a number of years.

 

[deducer]

I don't recall Jim Hatt mentioning a Jacob Alexander and couldn't find that in any searches on that forum. I'll have to refresh my memory from Glover's book tonight.

I think Jim Hatt sent a number of people disc's containing some of his research, but as far as his "on the ground" files and such the only person I ever heard claim they had them was Kurt Painter, but he said a lot of things during his time on the forums. Haven't seen anything from him or his group "Double Jack" for a number of years.

Jim doesn't mention the name as he didn't remember it, he only had on hand, an audio interview with the person who knew Bill Hidden and who had worked with him frequently during his last few years. This person's name was Doyle Harnish. I attempted to contact Harnish last year only to find out he had passed away. Perhaps his family or relatives have more information. This would be a lead worth chasing down, along with the audio file of the interview that Jim Hatt emailed to a few people at the time.

And as far as the research CD, I am familiar with it- it contained some of his research materials, yes, but not the bulk of it or its entirety. I'm not sure what exactly happened to his personal effects after he passed away, but I was told that it didn't end up with Kurt Painter (who was also the first person that came to my mind as well, but they were not that close, not as close as Painter would want you to think). I was told that Hatt's personal effects are with someone in Apache Junction and that this someone wasn't nice or reasonable to deal with.

 

[cw0909]

i dont want to side track this, some of you may be interested
reading markmar post #96,reminded me of looking up the phrase
Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
back when RG was on, any way, a poster at a language site post an inquiry about
it, back in 2005,thought it odd they said was from a document which dates from
1650, and the boy word from such a doc should have read voy, had to be a stoner
the poster had another post about the word jongo, see the links kind of interesting
forgot read all the reply, not many
jongo
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads/jongo.879258/

Tropic Timber : JONGO KABBES
Busca el Mapa
https://forum.wordreference.com/thr...-lugares-busca-el-mapa-busca-el-coazon.77828/