Clad, silver with WW2 marksman badge bars and button ID help please

tnt-hunter

Bronze Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,781
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Mountain Maryland
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I got to a set of ball fields and did a little more swingin with the CZ21. In 3 hours I managed to find 52 coins with a value of $6.96, a Sears key, a small button, a mashed lipstick tube with no markings, a heavy brass plate that is probably a part of a drawer pull or something similar, a milk bottle cap, an aluminum plate, some tabs and can slaw.

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For your young folks out there the aluminum foil circle is the cap to an old glass milk bottle from a local dairy in the town where the fields are located. The aluminum plate is part of an old ice cube tray. A tray that had a handle you pulled up on to break the cubes free from the tray.

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The button looks like it could be old and has some deterioration on the edge like pewter. A closer examination of the design and the shank say it is more modern and the button is light weight like pot metal. From this location it is probably a modern button.

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Got permission from the local priest to detect one of the churches he serves. It was built in 1891 and rededicated in 1899. I hadn?t been by the church in many years, but I knew the property was old and I have had good luck at churches before. When I got there and saw the church I remembered that it had been torn down and rebuilt in the 70?s and some out buildings were added as well. The weather man had called for showers, but it was raining pretty good. I said I might as well give it a try so I geared up and got wet. Most of the ground was just as I suspected, a few modern coins and construction aluminum bits from siding and gutters. A tab and foil here and there, but no sign of the Indians, V nickels and Barbers that should be there. Part of the construction included a larger paved parking lot which used up more of the original ground that might produce the older coins. There is a down hill slope on the far side of the parking lot that I decided to give a try before I left to be sure I wasn?t missing any areas. (I was doing walk arounds and gridding small sections to find promising spots.) It was a good thing that I did I tried the hill. My first coin was a wheatie and several coins later a merc dime showed up so I knew I was in the right spot.

In 5 hours of detecting the CZ21 sniffed out 52 coins with a face value of $2.71, (what a difference a day makes, 52 coins the day before was $6.96), a copper jacket bullet, a broken brass bolt from a water meter cap, a couple of pieces of odd brass, an interesting chromed brass cap, 10 wheaties, 2 silver dimes, 2 bars from a WW2 marksman badge, a few odd bits of heavy iron, tabs and construction scrap aluminum. This was the best silver day I have had on land for a long time.

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The wheaties are mostly crusty like usual for the soil around here. They are 1916, 1918, 1919, 1936, 1941, 1945, 1947D, 1952D, 1956 and one too crusty to read. The silver dimes are a well worn 1917 merc and a 1950 Rosie (my birth year).

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The Sterling marksman bars from WW2 were a nice surprise. I looked for the marksman badge, but did not locate it. When I go back and grid the hill maybe I will find it. It?s funny how these things work out. Carolinabusguy found marksman bars and posted them a while back and I haven?t seen any posted for a long time before his. Now I found some. I wouldn?t be surprised if more showed up soon.

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I got back in the water and detected one of the fresh water swimming areas in a local park swingin the ATPro. I got 4 hours in before I quit and found 15 coins with a face value of $1.02, sinkers, junky jewelry, 1 can tab, 3 rings, earrings, a belly stud and the usual aluminum foil.

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2 of the rings an earring and the belly stud are stainless steel. The ring with the heart shaped stone is silver and so is the earring with all the little czs. Not my best water hunt but not my worst either. I just need to get more contributors into the water. LOL

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Then I went back to the church to work on the hill some more with the CZ21. I spent 3 hour there and found 11 coins with a face value of $0.80, a children?s cameo ring, a bullet, what looks like a brass pencil sharpener, a play Monday quarter, 2 religious medals, a key, a silver dime, a sterling pin, an old button and a few can tabs. No wheaties this trip, but some of the finds are interesting.

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The silver dime is a 1942 and the sterling pin has M. P. S. 17 on it. I?m not sure what the initials stand for. If anyone has any ideas I would welcome the help. An internet search has not been any help. It was found in the little town of Midland so it is possible it is from the Midland Public School of 1917.

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The brass object has a ferrous portion that looks like it may have been a blade and the shape of the item makes it look like a hand held pencil sharpener. I did a little search and found one just like it. An Eagle hand held sharpener patented in 1893. Mine does not appear to have any writing on it. I will have to clean it up and see if I can see any writing.

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This part is for all you button collectors out there. The button has the front of a New York militia button from the civil war. The 3 varieties I have found all have a normal backmark and shank. This one has no back mark and the shank is just a bump in the medal with a hole in it. That style of back is much newer so I suspect that this is a replica button possibly used by reenactors. The button does show signs it has been in the ground a long time so possibly from the 1950s or 60s. Please let me know if this is a rare civil war variety (found some with this back configuration for sale on line listed as rare civil war buttons) or a modern remake. Thanks in advance for your input.

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So a great 7 silver week, some interesting old stuff and fun in the cool water. I will be at scout camp next week with no WiFi. So I?ll have to catch up after next week. Thanks for looking, stay safe and may your coil lead you to good things.
 

Upvote 11

Red-Coat

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Dec 23, 2019
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The Sterling marksman bars from WW2 were a nice surprise. I looked for the marksman badge, but did not locate it. When I go back and grid the hill maybe I will find it. It?s funny how these things work out. Carolinabusguy found marksman bars and posted them a while back and I haven?t seen any posted for a long time before his. Now I found some. I wouldn?t be surprised if more showed up soon.


Some nice history there. I love these marksmanship awards. The host badge can?t usually be dated, but the weapon qualification clasps sometimes give a clue because the categories have changed from time to time.

You can generally assume that the clasp nearest the top was the first to be awarded, or was awarded at the same time as those below it. The ?Submachine Gun? category was first introduced in 1941 and ?Carbine? introduced in 1944, so with ?Carbine? at the top, the set will date from 1944 or later. Both categories are still current though.
 

DCMatt

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Oct 12, 2006
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Herndon Virginia
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Nice digs! You've been busy!

Your Excelsior button is not Civil War. The "self-shank" on the back shows it is closer to the turn of the (or very early) 20th C. I'm not 100% sure on the date range.

Perhaps TheCannonballGuy will chime with a proper explanation and ID as he is our resident expert on these things.
 

OP
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tnt-hunter

tnt-hunter

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Apr 20, 2018
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Mountain Maryland
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Fisher CZ-21, Minelab Equinix 800, ,Garret AT Pro,
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Some nice history there. I love these marksmanship awards. The host badge can?t usually be dated, but the weapon qualification clasps sometimes give a clue because the categories have changed from time to time.

You can generally assume that the clasp nearest the top was the first to be awarded, or was awarded at the same time as those below it. The ?Submachine Gun? category was first introduced in 1941 and ?Carbine? introduced in 1944, so with ?Carbine? at the top, the set will date from 1944 or later. Both categories are still current though.

Nice digs! You've been busy!

Your Excelsior button is not Civil War. The "self-shank" on the back shows it is closer to the turn of the (or very early) 20th C. I'm not 100% sure on the date range.

Perhaps TheCannonballGuy will chime with a proper explanation and ID as he is our resident expert on these things.

Thank you both for the helpful input. It is nice to find out more about what we dig up. Hopefully TheCannonballGuy will chime in with more definitive info on the button. Thanks again, stay safe and keep swingin.
 

TheCannonballGuy

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Feb 24, 2006
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tnt-hunter (the button's finder) wrote:
> Hopefully TheCannonballGuy will chime in with more definitive info on the button.

As DCMatt astutely observed, your button has a self-shank back, so it is definitely not an actual Military-issue button, despite having a New York State Militia Officer emblem on its front.

More-specific info:
Your self-shank back button is an unusual variation of what button collectors call a "false 3-piece" or "false Staff" button. I've seen several varieties of false-3-piece buttons whose front showed an "obsolete" US Military or State Militia emblem. Apparently, these false-3-piece "replacements" were made for retired veterans who needed buttons for their veterans-organization uniforms, but the original version of button they wore during their time of service was no longer being manufactured.

The type of self-shank back on your button is what collectors call a "pierced dome" self-shank back. More than a decade ago, I saw the US Patent drawing for the pierced=dome back, but I cannot find it now. If I recall correctly, that Patent was dated sometime around 1910 or 1912. So, your button cannot be older than that. I believe it is from sometime between 1910 and the late-1930s.
 

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tnt-hunter

tnt-hunter

Bronze Member
Apr 20, 2018
1,781
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Mountain Maryland
🏆 Honorable Mentions:
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Fisher CZ-21, Minelab Equinix 800, ,Garret AT Pro,
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
tnt-hunter (the button's finder) wrote:
> Hopefully TheCannonballGuy will chime in with more definitive info on the button.

As DCMatt astutely observed, your button has a self-shank back, so it is definitely not an actual Military-issue button, despite having a New York State Militia Officer emblem on its front.

More-specific info:
Your self-shank back button is an unusual variation of what button collectors call a "false 3-piece" or "false Staff" button. I've seen several varieties of false-3-piece buttons whose front showed an "obsolete" US Military or State Militia emblem. Apparently, these false-3-piece "replacements" were made for retired veterans who needed buttons for their veterans-organization uniforms, but the original version of button they wore during their time of service was no longer being manufactured.

The type of self-shank back on your button is what collectors call a "pierced dome" self-shank back. More than a decade ago, I saw the US Patent drawing for the pierced=dome back, but I cannot find it now. If I recall correctly, that Patent was dated sometime around 1910 or 1912. So, your button cannot be older than that. I believe it is from sometime between 1910 and the late-1930s.

Thank you for the great information. You really know your stuff. I was pretty sure it wasn’t civil war to start with and it’s probably not a 100 years old as I had hoped, but an interesting find anyway.

As always your help is greatly appreciated. Stay safe and keep swingin.
 

Elvis

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Jan 8, 2007
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Awesome score!! Congrats!!
 

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