COLONIAL OR CIVIL WAR KNIFE - PRE 1800? COULD BE THE FIRST BOWIE???

[LOCKOUTKINGS]

I DUG UP THIS KNIFE IN THE HILLS OF CENTRAL NY,I FOUND IT WITH MY METAL DETECTOR. IT WAS ABOUT 10-15 INCHES DEEP. ITS CONSTRUCTED OF COPPER, BRASS/BRONZE WOOD AND REDDISH CLAY.I THINK ITS COLONIAL OR CIVIL WAR ERA.I HAVE NOT FOUND THE BODY YET!LOL

ONE SIDE OF THE HANDLE COMES OFF DUE TO ME DROPPING IT AND THE CLAY CHIPPED OFF.THERE WAS A OLD PILE OF BRICKS SCATTERED AROUND THE SITE, SO MABEY THAT HELPED REDUCE DAMAGE..

 

[MonkeyBoy]

So?? What is the blade made of? Brass Copper? Hard to tell from the pic..

MonkeyBoy

 

[relichunters]

It was made by a blacksmith, at least the blade part. Looks made from an anvil from the way it was pounded.

 

[smokedaddy]

Its all in what the object condition was when it was lost guys/gals. That knife, most likely saturated in an oil based coating prior to when it was dropped. It was not uncommon in the early days to coat cutlery with oil as the blades would rust at the first hint of exposure. Therefore preserving it in its found condition. Just like mummys buried thousands of years ago.Why are they not dust ?. Its all in Preservation / Ground Conditions. Great job and a nice find, enjoy it.

 

[diggemall]

I think the point he was making is After more than 100 years in the ground, the wood on the handle would surely have rotted away!

Not necessarily. I know of cedar fence posts that have been in service in NE Wisconsin - not much different that upstate NY - for at least 40 years and are still going strong. The heartwood of some species (like cedar, teak, redwood, bald cypress, black cherry, and certain oaks) is naturally very decay resistant.

Diggem'

 

[Getty]

WELCOME to the forum! I say its a kicka$$ find wether its old or not.Its still a find.Congrats on the cool find.Last time I logged on,and came here it was TODAYS FINDS. good luck with the rest and HH.

 

[lucky1777]

Wow,

Not the warm welcome I am used to seeing on Treasurenet. Why dose everyone have to jump down his throut.... Just Welcome him to treasurenet, guess what you think the find is and move on.

Keep @ it and HH!!

I agree with you, but there always has to be some know it all smart a$$ to ruin it. Welcome to the site Lockout, awesome find.

 

[Skrimpy]

Wow,

Not the warm welcome I am used to seeing on Treasurenet. Why dose everyone have to jump down his throut.... Just Welcome him to treasurenet, guess what you think the find is and move on.

Keep @ it and HH!!

I agree with you, but there always has to be some know it all smart a$$ to ruin it. Welcome to the site Lockout, awesome find.

Exactly! Nice find. Don't care if it's a recent drop, or an old drop. It's still freakin cool. Try to find an antique knife collector. He/she would know for sure if it was old or not.

 

[diamondjim]

My first thought was "this post is fake" but then I recall trees from 10,000 BC that occasionally get dug up around here and look pretty much like, well...trees...even burn 'em for fuel when thet dry out. So not impossible for knife to be preserved in hard pack clay...NOW the real question, how did it get there?

Those trees from 10,000 BC were burried in a hurry by natural forces...if you laid out this kinife it WOULD decay long, long, long before it reached 15 inch depth in hard clay. Raises the interesting question, was it burried on purpose? Or possibly some nartural occurance? (i.e.: mud slide) My suggestion for a date is too look for other artifacts, sometimes pretty tough to ID age of one item taken out of context. With a group of items you have a greater chance of finding something diagnostic to a certain period, or at least enough overlapping time frames to make a good guess.

As for the rest of the not so postive remarks...ignore the fools. Sorry for the digression, this thread is about your very cool knife, not my opinion of less than postive contributers to "today's finds." Keep diggin' and please keep posting, looks like you have remarkable ground there, I hope to see more stuff come out of the ground!

 

[Gypsy Heart]

Its a fantastic knife and a fantastic find! Way to Go ! Hope you find alot more at that site!

 

[prolab69]

If you really would like an experts opinion on it, have Mud swing by my house with it when my dad is home, My dad is a retired federal meat inspector for the USDA, being a Butcher for 50+ odd years he knows everything there is to know about knives. He was a butcher! and his father was a butcher, so im sure he`ll give you quite an experts opinion on it.
cool find

 

[Rd2nowr]

One way to see if it was made by a blacsmith is to look for layers in the steel. It could be Damascus( formed by heating red hot and pounding over and over) Looks cool though, congrats and welcome to the insanity! Tim

 

[Goldiver]

Welcome to Treasurenet! That is a pretty cool old knife! You said there were bricks nearby, was the site a home or barn that was demolished in recent years? If so it may have been hidden in the building somewhere then buried from bulldozers? I once dug up an old hog scraper in NY many moons ago that still had the wood intact, I dried it out and coated it and it came out nice. By this I know wood can survive under the right conditions. It is surely handmade, good luck with the ID.

Steve

 

[madmacabre]

Very nice find , get it professionally looked at and get back to us

 

[fyrfighter17]

I wasn't trying to burst anyones bubble...just thought it was odd that the wood was still intact...theres no rot,no insect damage,no staining..the wood is always the first thing to go...how many times do you find the handle to go with the axe head or the grips to the pistol thats found or the stock of the musket barrel..a simple explanation would have helped

 

[Pa.Billy]

I don't know about the knife but I like the debate,it's a learning experience. Check and balances is great with me,some people just can't any back and forth so to speak whatsoever. I think there's been a lot of good posts explaining and support of the finder. At least lockoutkings gave us plenty of replies,I wish the finder of the gold coin would do the same.....

 

[LOCKOUTKINGS]

the blade and handle under the wood part is all one piece and appears to be brass or bronze.

 

[diamondjim]

I wasn't trying to burst anyones bubble...just thought it was odd that the wood was still intact...theres no rot,no insect damage,no staining..the wood is always the first thing to go...how many times do you find the handle to go with the axe head or the grips to the pistol thats found or the stock of the musket barrel..a simple explanation would have helped

Your initial observation IS correct...wood will rot in the ground. The handles of this knife did not rot. There are numerous possible explainations for this...each present clues to additional places to hunt. Was it hidden in a building, only recently knocked down? Burried on purpose? Natural disaster? I thought the very same as you at first, but this whole thing is learning process. There IS a simple explaination for the condition of the knife, we just aren't able to arrive at a conclusive anwser from a few text posts, without going to dig up the whole site to figure out how this happened. I'd love to know what really happened here, hope we get more info about finds at the site!

 

[incajoe]

That's very odd.
First of all I have never seen any sort of knife that has it's grips held in place by clay. That just wouldn't work. Second, A blade is never made from brass or bronze because it is too soft to hold an edge and wouldn't be durable. I'm thinking it has to be some sort of dummy knife like something that was made for the stage or something.
Whatever it is it's a great looking piece and certainly a conversation piece. I can't imagine that it has survived that well if it was buried in the ground for 100+ years. I think it must have been lost much more recently.
Can you give us more info on what the site was like where you found it?

 

[LOCKOUTKINGS]

its not a stage knife, the property where I found the knife was a big open field where there were a couple shacks and a old barn and house that existed in the 1800s. my aunt owns the property.
and well, you have seen a knife like that now.

 

[JP]

I looked at the pictures a little more. The "clay" material would be some kind of a resin that the original owner would have used to try to keep the handles glued to the knife.

The pommel, the brass looking piece on the back of the handle really looks like it came off of a bayonet, that's why I said that probably the original owner built the knife from a bayonet.

As for wood in the ground, when I was in El Salvador a few years ago I saw a few cap and ball rifles that were recovered from being buried over 100 years ago. The wood was still intact. I have also seen swords from the colonial period pulled out of the ground that had been buried for that amount of time or more, still with wood on the grip.

HH


Updated several hours after I posted it.

I wanted to add the fact the tang of the blade (in picture_411555555555) that goes through the handle looks like it had been cut by a wheel. I have a friend that welds. When he cuts steel the edges have the same marks. I don't know how long they have been cutting steel like this but it might help to put the knife within a range of dates.