Confederate Button in Union Fort area! (Not)

Oilfield Diver · Sep 18, 2011

Wow! My first Confederate button - and it was found in a Union Fort area. I know its not a big deal for most, but being on what was yankee occupied land it is an important and rare find for where it was dug. Could have been from the Confederates short occupation of the Fort before the Union gained back control of it again. It would be interesting to know how it got there. From my research it was a regular infantry button. It has "CS" on the front and Henry V Allien & Co. N.Y. on the back. What years were this button used? Thx!

uglymailman · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

N.Y. Co. makin buttons for the CS? Them Yankees would do anything for a buck.

umrgolf · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

If that turns out to be a CS confederate or SC south carolina, it is a rare one. I have never seen that button and it looks legit.

{Sentinel} · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

H. V. ALLIEN & CO 1877-1948

umrgolf · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

{Sentinel} said:
H. V. ALLIEN & CO 1877-1948

Guess not :P wonder what that stands for then

scaupus · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

it's still a quite old button and certainly must have some history. It's nice to think a relic is significant, but the real goal is to find out what really it is. If you do that, then you done good.

Oilfield Diver · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Sentinel, check your googling sources for validity. You came across the first reference for "H.V. Allien" in a google search and instantly believe it without validating the source. The internet is not all knowing, don't be influenced so easily. It is wise to validate information before putting ones name to it. You found this in a "editorial" about a uniform on "militarytrader.com". Did you check and see if "William Howard" is correct in the article he wrote. Who is he? Is he an expert? Maybe he did the same thing as you - googled it, went to the first link and deemed it true without further validation. If you were to check out a few more links and maybe the next page on the google list you will see that "H.V. Allien" was making military items as early as 1850 (and probably earlier). Later he merged with the Horstmann brothers, hence button backs having "Horstmann & Allien" on the back. Although I haven't validated it yet, I am finding that Confederate buttons with just "CS" on them instead of "CSA" are Texas Confederate buttons but I haven't thoroughly researched this completely yet to make a definitive statement at this time so it is just an "assumption." Experts such as "Cannonballguy" and others will be able to solve this button issue in short order.

Below is the same button as mine at a Austin, Texas antique dealer (thirteen stars, thirteen Confederate States). The second button is another earlier Texas "CS" Confederate button.

piratejoe · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Love it.
I sure do miss being in an area of the CW. Down here in the FL Keys, at least I have Treasure Ships to wish for.
Good Job Mate.

Oilfield Diver · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Thanks Pirate Joe. I don't think you are missing a thing; you are in one beautiful spot that is full of treasure. Spent a month down there at one time trying to hitch up with one of the treasure ventures. Lower Matacumbe Key or Cudjoe Key seemed a good spot to me to drop anchor and sit back, sip some rum, grow a long beard and listen to that oldie radio station that broadcasted from Plantation Key. If I were there I would just end up being a beach bum living on my boat hunting for treasure for a lifetime.

umrgolf · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

I have found your backmark associated with the dates Sentinel gave at 4 different places now. And I can assure you he knows a hell of a lot about civil war relics and hes probably never been to militarytrader.com

Your button is possibly a fraternal organization associated with the SCV

{Sentinel} · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Oilfield Diver said:
Sentinel, check your googling sources for validity. You came across the first reference for "H.V. Allien" in a google search and instantly believe it without validating the source. The internet is not all knowing, don't be influenced so easily. It is wise to validate information before putting ones name to it. You found this in a "editorial" about a uniform on "militarytrader.com". Did you check and see if "William Howard" is correct in the article he wrote. Who is he? Is he an expert? Maybe he did the same thing as you - googled it, went to the first link and deemed it true without further validation. If you were to check out a few more links and maybe the next page on the google list you will see that "H.V. Allien" was making military items as early as 1850 (and probably earlier). Later he merged with the Horstmann brothers, hence button backs having "Horstmann & Allien" on the back. Although I haven't validated it yet, I am finding that Confederate buttons with just "CS" on them instead of "CSA" are Texas Confederate buttons but I haven't thoroughly researched this completely yet to make a definitive statement at this time so it is just an "assumption." Experts such as "Cannonballguy" and others will be able to solve this button issue in short order.

Below is the same button as mine at a Austin, Texas antique dealer. The second button is another Texas "CS" Confederate button.

No Sir, I've been digging Civil War relics for 12 years and that button IS NOT a CIVIL WAR BUTTON. That button maker did not start making buttons with that backmark until 1877

I know that you'd like it to be a Confederate Button, but the fact is that it just isn't. Henry V Allien did not start making buttons with that backmark until well AFTER the Civil War had

ended, in addition, that button was never used by the Confederacy.

Oilfield Diver · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

What is the application of this button then, with "CS" and thirteen stars on it that would be made after 1877? (Confederate States, thirteen States in the Confederacy)?

{Sentinel} · Sep 18, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Oilfield Diver said:
What is the application of this button then, with "CS" and thirteen stars on it that would be made after 1877? (Confederate States, thirteen States in the Confederacy)?

'
I've seen the design before, I believe its a fraternal organization button of some kind that's escaping my memory possibly the Colombian Squires. It's common to find 13 stars on MANY

buttons, including U.S. Buttons of all types: Marines, Navy, New York, New Hampshire, etc., etc. ... 13 stars is a common theme on many U.S. buttons and fraternal buttons representing

the 13 originial American Colonies. I can also assure you that when it comes to Civil War, you're speaking with one of the most educated people on the subject on this forum.

Oilfield Diver · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

As a Sons of the Republic of Texas and Sons of San Jacinto, I attest and commend you on your experienced knowledge; your thirteen colony statement has some credence to your case. I don't mean to be stubborn but I would like to have something definitive to hang my hat on before relinquishing my Texas Confederate opinion. Show me the frat and I will turn my horse around and ride off into the sunset back to Texas.

{Sentinel} · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Oilfield Diver said:
As a Sons of the Republic of Texas and Sons of San Jacinto, I attest and commend you on your experienced knowledge; your thirteen colony statement has some credence to your case. I don't mean to be stubborn but I would like to have something definitive to hang my hat on before relinquishing my Texas Confederate opinion. Show me the frat and I will turn my horse around and ride off into the sunset back to Texas.

I commend you on being a member of the Sons of Texas and San Jacinto, I've been a member of the Sons of the Confederate Veterans for about 16 years now myself. It may be the

Colombian Squires that I recall had an anagram like that one, if not I'll look in my button books and try to get a definitive match for you.

Oilfield Diver · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

Columbian Squires it is. Notice the interlaced letter configuration. Good enough evidence for this Texan. Done tipped my hat to ya and turned my horse around.

kuger · Sep 19, 2011

Re: Confederate Button in Union Fort area!

{Sentinel} said:
Oilfield Diver said:

What is the application of this button then, with "CS" and thirteen stars on it that would be made after 1877? (Confederate States, thirteen States in the Confederacy)?

Click to expand...

'
I've seen the design before, I believe its a fraternal organization button of some kind that's escaping my memory possibly the Colombian Squires. It's common to find 13 stars on MANY buttons, including U.S. Buttons of all types: Marines, Navy, New York, New Hampshire, etc., etc. ... 13 stars is a common theme on many U.S. buttons and fraternal buttons representing the 13 originial American Colonies. I can also assure you that when it comes to Civil War, you're speaking with one of the most educated people on the subject on this forum.

X2!!!