Copper tool

[Mintberrycrunch]

Found on a river near known Indian mounds I was hoping copper culture probably wishful thinking any thoughts. Update after sending out a few emails to people dealing in bronze artifacts I may have a lead I'll post the email

 

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[Mintberrycrunch]

Any new ideas places to look into?

 

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[releventchair]

I'd still call it a Manitou. Mainly to keep me from forgetting about it. Was my first impression ,though too out of context to be native crafted from bronze. Inspired by natives? , Maybe. The water serpent. Or whatever the spirit is that stirs up water unexpectedly.

(Check out an Arial shot of Manitou Island too if you're bored. Check its shape. Add a couple lengths to it's blunt "forks"...)

I mentioned before of some places /folks to consult.
Near me today I'd hit the college of art and design.

If you are going to keep researching (suggesting here, not telling you) treat it like it is an object I hold that you are vaguely interested in. With no pretense.

Keep at it.

 

[invent4hir]

Kudos on the good pics. Not sure what it is, but if you want I can send them to some archealogists to get their opinion. Just let me know.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Kudos on the good pics. Not sure what it is, but if you want I can send them to some archealogists to get their opinion. Just let me know.

Yes please. I have a picture of the composition on here too. Thanks for the help

 

[invent4hir]

Yes please. I have a picture of the composition on here too. Thanks for the help

Mint, ok will send tomorrow. Given their workload it might take a week to hear back.

 

[invent4hir]

E-mail and pics sent to 3 archaeologists in Ohio. One is a curator at the Ohio History Connection, the second works for a natural history organization, and the third a college professor who has conducted a lot of field excavations. Will post their replies as I get them.

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

E-mail and pics sent to 3 archaeologists in Ohio. One is a curator at the Ohio History Connection, the second works for a natural history organization, and the third a college professor who has conducted a lot of field excavations. Will post their replies as I get them.

Sweet ty I hope they can help with the mystery I look forward to hearing back thanks again

 

[HuntinDog]

Mint
So glad you are still on the hunt for answers.
Sorry, I wish I coulkd help and I hope someone out there can.
Good luck...

 

[invent4hir]

Update: Curator at the Ohio History Connection doesn't know and is waiting to hear back from a few colleagues. The college professor is unsure of the purpose. Keep fingers crossed.

 

[Reanm8er]

It seems a little too small to be a bottle opener and it probably pre-dates crown caps. I have seen objects like this made for smoking short cigars. The handle wouldn't go into the palm but between the thumb and forefinger or knuckle.

 

[invent4hir]

Mint, below is the response from the Curator at the Ohio History Connection. Using logic he did narrow the search, but a positive ID has thus far eluded him and his colleagues. If you haven't done so already I recommend showing it to one or more Archeologists/Anthropologists who are familiar with the mounds and that area of the state to get their input. Better yet, invite them to the spot where you found it, as seeing the location first hand will help them re-construct the context that may mean the difference between IDing the artifact and not. Good luck.

"Being as it appears of cast brass, as it so appears, it is a post-contact era piece. Copper materials as associated with Michigan mound culture would have greater degrading due to reaction with water or air and be pitted. The green oxidation here indicates a relatively high copper content, but being so well preserved it is assuredly brass and with a reasonable amount of nickel. Most unfortunately, as a surface find, and a direct lacking archaeological (stratigraphic) context, it will remain a mystery unsolved. Unless John Schweikart here is correct and it is a decorative pull that has parallels elsewhere.

If it exhibits use, as say the open end shows some use pattern, it might be an early trade item stylized to the benefit of a Native trade partner. Otherwise I could not venture to say. The fact it’s found in association with a bottle (etc?) dump (?) also indicates a likely historic association. Heck of a thing to throw away but I’ve seen many such (“they threw that away?”) examples."

 

[Doubter in MD]

It's a cue stick stabilizer. Or at least you could use it for that.

 

[Robot]

If It Is Bronze...It Could Be Roman?

What it may be...Is a Roman Bronze...Strap End?

 

[Mintberrycrunch]

Mint, below is the response from the Curator at the Ohio History Connection. Using logic he did narrow the search, but a positive ID has thus far eluded him and his colleagues. If you haven't done so already I recommend showing it to one or more Archeologists/Anthropologists who are familiar with the mounds and that area of the state to get their input. Better yet, invite them to the spot where you found it, as seeing the location first hand will help them re-construct the context that may mean the difference between IDing the artifact and not. Good luck.

"Being as it appears of cast brass, as it so appears, it is a post-contact era piece. Copper materials as associated with Michigan mound culture would have greater degrading due to reaction with water or air and be pitted. The green oxidation here indicates a relatively high copper content, but being so well preserved it is assuredly brass and with a reasonable amount of nickel. Most unfortunately, as a surface find, and a direct lacking archaeological (stratigraphic) context, it will remain a mystery unsolved. Unless John Schweikart here is correct and it is a decorative pull that has parallels elsewhere.

If it exhibits use, as say the open end shows some use pattern, it might be an early trade item stylized to the benefit of a Native trade partner. Otherwise I could not venture to say. The fact it’s found in association with a bottle (etc?) dump (?) also indicates a likely historic association. Heck of a thing to throw away but I’ve seen many such (“they threw that away?”) examples."

no nickel here’s the composition

 

[Robot]

These Percentages...Appear To Be Bang On...For 1st Century Composite...Roman Bronze!

no nickel here’s the composition

Roman Bronze

Number of samples 1st century 191

Zn (Zinc)...10%... Sn (Tin)...4-2%... Pb (Lead)...2-2%... Cu (Copper)...Balance

 

[Clay Diggins]

View attachment 1696161


Roman Bronze

Number of samples 1st century 191

Zn (Zinc)...10%... Sn (Tin)...4-2%... Pb (Lead)...2-2%... Cu (Copper)...Balance

Bronze is alloyed with Tin - not Zinc.

https://www.metalsupermarkets.com/difference-between-copper-brass-bronze/

 

[Robot]

Could It Be...Phosphor Bronze?

Bronze is alloyed with Tin - not Zinc./

Bronze can be made with other alloys as in Phosphor Bronze

• Zinc — 9.9%
• Tin — 2.2%
• Iron — 1.9%
• Phosphorus — 0.03%
• Copper — 85.97%

Effect of Zinc on Strength and Electrical Conductivity in Phosphor Bronze

Alloy	Fe	P	Sn	Zn	Cu	Electrical Conductivity %IACS	Tensile Strength Ksi (MPa)	Yield Strength Ksi (MPa)
	2.2	0.06	1.8		Bal	33	99 (682)	96 (662)
	2.2	0.06	1.8	5	Bal	29	99 (682)	94 (648)
	2.2	0.06	1.8	10	Bal	25	108 (745)	101 (696)

 

[Clay Diggins]

Bronze can be made with other alloys as in Phosphor Bronze

Phosphor Bronze is a very modern metal. When Zinc is added it becomes brass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_bronze

Around 2001, the Olin Corporation developed another alloy for use in electrical and electronic connectors which they referred to as "phosphor bronze".[6] Its composition was as follows:

Zinc – 9.9%
Tin – 2.2%
Iron – 1.9%
Phosphorus – 0.03%
Copper – 85.97%

When assessed in strictly metallurgical terms it is not a phosphor bronze, but a form of iron-modified tin brass.

Copper alloyed with Tin is Bronze metal.
Copper alloyed with Zinc is Brass metal.

 

[Robot]

A Rose By Any Other Name...Would Smell As Sweet!

Phosphor Bronze is a very modern metal. When Zinc is added it becomes brass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor_bronze



Copper alloyed with Tin is Bronze metal.
Copper alloyed with Zinc is Brass metal.

And if the Romans made this...Strap End...with this same Metallurgic Recipe Verified... by Strengthening Copper with Zinc rather than Tin...which today is a form of Phosphor Bronze...then by finding this ancient Roman Strap End... Proves that they had this knowledge prior of the invention of Zinc fortified Phosphor Bronze!


https://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2001/06/phosphor_bronze.html

 

[Clay Diggins]

You can call a cat a horse if you want.

If copper is alloyed with Zinc it is brass - no matter how much phosphorous is added.

In any case there is no evidence the piece in question is bronze, nor does it contain phosphorus.

As I pointed out previously the inclusion of lead points to a machine age brass formula. Lead does not alloy with brass but it mixes fairly well and provides lubrication for machine tooling.