creek hunters rights

[mad.co.walker]

A question to all creek hunters: a while back i was having a discussion with a friend who creek walks in missouri and he was run out of a creek by a landowner who owns property on just one side of the creek. the other side was not owned by this person. my friend said he was told that creeks are fair game and that no one owns the creeks. there were no signs posted. i could see if a landowner owns property on both sides but just one side.? what are the "legal" rights for us creek hunters. any advice would be great, thanks. steve.

 

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[Tnmountains]

This is a good question for legal minds and my mind is not one but here is what I do know.
I have bought land and owned both sides of the creek. I had the rights to the creek but not the water as it affected neighbors downstream. Therefore I could post both sides of the creek and control access. I have bought land where I owned to the middle of the creek and only controlled to the middle of the creek and just posted one side from tresspassing.

Now my understanding is that if is a navigable waterway meaning boat ,canoe,kayak you can not stop people from traveling down the creek. But this does not give them permission to Hunt wildlife and if it is posted they must have written permission to hunt. I do not know about removing artifacts which may be deemed their real property. Ughh.

For instance the wild life resource agency contacted me for permission to stock trout in one of the creeks that I control that runs for several miles. I said sure what is the catch. They said I had to open it up to the PUBLIC. I am thinking injury lawsuits etc. so called my insurance agency and they said no way do not open up the creek to the public as we can not cover that.(Loyd's of London will though).You can buy a 2.5 mil policy and let people wander everywhere .
So my guess is someone somewhere owns the creek to some degree. I know I walk creeks but most times know the owners of the lands that I am on. It is not much diffrent than hunting a plowed field,,,
I think you may have more rights on what they call a navigable waterway with a boat than walking on a shallow gravel creek. Navigable is going to be a key word.
Am sure this is not what people want to hear and most times landowners are pretty easy to get along with but get a few that have been run over and I mean abused by people trespassing and my bet is you would loose in a court of law if it got that far. Each state is diffrent on posting laws. Here in Tn we must post every 100 yards on a boundary line. In Ala you can paint the line blue and it means the same thing.
I would try to check your STATE LAWS. You can not tell these landowners they do not own the creek when a legal deed puts that creek with in their property lines.
I do work for a land office that deals in large tracts of undeveloped land and carry a professional lisc plus I manage over 4000 acres and the many rights associated with those lands.
But this is a humble opinion and one us artifact and metal detectorist must deal with when venturing out for our hobby.
Good luck and hopefully someone with some type of degree in this will weigh in.
HH

 

[Th3rty7]

Like TnMountains said, check your state laws they differ from state to state. It's crazy around here on certain bodies of water. Landowners went back to 17th century English laws to protect their land under the river. You can float through on a canoe or kayak but it's against the law to set foot on the ground under the water. It doesn't make sense but it's the deal around here. If it wasn't one of the best trout streams in the east I doubt anyone would even care.

 

[Joe Hoo?]

i am trying to find more answers to this question as well, as i have done some great research and found some spots that are creek wise and very secluded but will not walk it until i can be assured i am within the legality of it... Joe Hoo Central, Illinois....

 

[mad.co.walker]

thanks guys it will help. steve.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

I walked the creeks and streams in central Missouri for 20 years. It depends on the size of the creek or stream your in...Basically if you can float a canoe down it you can walk it, it is considered public navigable.

"Boundaries along streams
The question of where the boundary runs when land borders a stream may arise when water, gravel, mineral or recreational rights are disputed or when a stream changes course. The location of the boundary and the adjoining landowner's rights normally depend on the legal classification of the stream at the point in question. In Missouri, riparian water (natural watercourses or lakes) may be classified as

Public navigable
A stream is basically classified as public navigable if it is large enough for commercial watercraft to float on it. In Missouri, the landowner adjoining the stream is considered to own land down to the water's edge (low-water mark), while the public retains ownership of the streambed. Any land that is slowly and imperceptibly built up along the shoreline is considered to belong to the adjoining owner by the doctrine of "accretion."

Public nonnavigable
A stream that is too small to float commercial watercraft but is sufficiently large to float canoes, small fishing boats or logs is legally classified as public nonnavigable in Missouri. Here, the boundary is said to run with the center thread of the stream. Thus, the boundary would change with a gradual change in the center thread of the stream. If the stream suddenly changes course, the boundary does not change but remains at the original place.
A landowner adjoining a public nonnavigable stream has the right to remove sand and gravel from it. However, his or her ownership rights are subject to the public's right to use the stream itself for recreational purposes.

Private nonnavigable
If a stream is too small to float canoes, small fishing boats or logs, it falls into the classification of private nonnavigable. Here, adjoining landowners not only own the bed to the middle thread, but also have the right to control the use of such streams."

The owner would only own to the middle of the creek unless he owned land on both sides....

http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G810

Hope this helps...

 

[mootsman]

This is controversial but well worth the read.
http://www.nationalrivers.org/us-law-who-owns.htm

 

[Hutch in PA]

IMO, respecting the wishes of the land owner is paramount...even if you can argue a legal right. My three favorite hobbies...hunting, fishing and artifacts depend 100 percent on the kindness of farmers and large property owners. Here in PA, nine times out of ten you can gain access to property if you put a little time and effort into it. I find that if you take a few samples of points you have found elsewhere, they quickly get intrigued and engaged. Even if their property is posted, they will usually give you access. And be sure to stop back around the holidays. My wife is a great baker....she is kind enough to make trays for about a dozen different land owners. When you show up in the spring or fall, they will remember you!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

IMO, respecting the wishes of the land owner is paramount...even if you can argue a legal right. My three favorite hobbies...hunting, fishing and artifacts depend 100 percent on the kindness of farmers and large property owners. Here in PA, nine times out of ten you can gain access to property if you put a little time and effort into it. I find that if you take a few samples of points you have found elsewhere, they quickly get intrigued and engaged. Even if their property is posted, they will usually give you access. And be sure to stop back around the holidays. My wife is a great baker....she is kind enough to make trays for about a dozen different land owners. When you show up in the spring or fall, they will remember you!

When I lived in Missouri, I gained acces to a lot of posted land by being polite, asking and kept access by doing as hutch said....My job then included riding fiber optic lines, I had handouts to give out contractors and landowners. I always made sure the home owners in the areas I wanted to hunt got plenty of work gloves and hats....I also carried one-call maps and they are great...

Steve, there is an agency called One-Call for locating cables. They have some of the best maps in the world for artifact hunting, they show every creek, stream and it breaks down into to range, township section and so on.....I highly recommend you check into it even if you have to buy the maps.....Just look up Missouri One-call.

 

[joshuaream]

IMO, respecting the wishes of the land owner is paramount...even if you can argue a legal right.

I agree for the most part. I never had problems in Kentucky with walking bigger creeks, but if an owner had freaked out I would have left (better to be wrong than shot.)

When I lived in Montana everyone knew the laws regarding river access, but out of staters who bought vacation homes would always tear out of the house screaming at people for fly fishing and rock hunting... We usually just ignored them or told them to call the police. I actually respected the fishermen who didn't like us flipping big rocks (disturbing trout eggs, bugs, hatchlings, etc.) more than I respected a meat-head from California who bought a summer home and thought that meant he owned the view as well.

 

[Joe Hoo?]

very interesting points on this topic, i appreciate all the replys to this thread even though i was not the one who started it... HH TO ALL... Joe Hoo Central, IL

 

[Tnmountains]

When reading some of the old land grant deeds of land some even on onion skin paper that have been passed down through generations I have seen phrases of stuff like.

From the large Chestnut located on the N.E corner extending W. to three stacked stones blah blah blah and then at the very end including "all rights to the depths of hell and to the heights of heaven". This can become very interesting when you hire a surveyor to establish true property lines. Plus creeks change course through avulsion and accreation which is someting us artifact hunters like.

 

[catherine1]

I would not worry about the larger creeks that licensed canoes use. Any thing smaller I would just walk on down the creek to another property line if confronted. We really don't have a problem where I live. Remember one thing---don't mention arrowheads or artifacts!!

 

[Tnmountains]

I would not worry about the larger creeks that licensed canoes use. Any thing smaller I would just walk on down the creek to another property line if confronted. We really don't have a problem where I live. Remember one thing---don't mention arrowheads or artifacts!!

lol. Well that does not work to well around here. Usually if you do not belong they are not going to let you just scoot over to the neighbors. If you are lucky they are going to watch you get in your vehicle and leave. I had to delete the rest of what I wrote. Just spend some time and try to get permission. It could lead to even better things.
Good luck!

 

[archer66]

I would not worry about the larger creeks that licensed canoes use. Any thing smaller I would just walk on down the creek to another property line if confronted. We really don't have a problem where I live. Remember one thing---don't mention arrowheads or artifacts!!

lol. Well that does not work to well around here. Usually if you do not belong they are not going to let you just scoot over to the neighbors. If you are lucky they are going to watch you get in your vehicle and leave. I had to delete the rest of what I wrote. Just spend some time and try to get permission. It could lead to even better things.
Good luck!

Bottom line right there....get permission. Beats the heck out of looking over your shoulder all the time.

 

[SOHIO]

Beats the heck out of looking over your shoulder all the time.

I thought that was supposed to be the fun part

 

[Joe Hoo?]

Beats the heck out of looking over your shoulder all the time.

I thought that was supposed to be the fun part

Oh jesus no it"s not fun at all looking over your shoulder lmao especially out here in the country, everyone owns a firearm.... ... this has been a interesting thread... thanx to ( mad.co.walker) for this thread...

 

[iowa trout]

The old meandering vs meandered stream debate as I understand it in my area the surface of the water is property of the state and free to float if navigateable at least once in the last 15 years statewide.The bottom of a stream its banks and sandbars are the landowners property if portage around a log jam or leaving the water surface is required that's allowed however the landowners cow fence water gap must be fashioned in a manner so floaters can pass through safely.So when one leaves the high water mark of public land collection area into private stream its no longer collectible but can be legally navigated by float .As far as creek hunters rights on private land permission is the only legal way even if just floating through which can be done without permission.On a humorus note one can go where ever one please as long as floating or "dragging" a kayak/canoe including the dry creekbed on private property that flooded 2 inches 15 years ago .Messed up a bit with over lapping state and federal laws high/low water marks public /private lines and forever changing streambeds leaving the grey areas for the lawyers .Permission an honesty is always the best policy .

 

[mad.co.walker]

thanks to all that replied. i always try to get permission but where we hunt its hard to find the owner until its to late. meaning they are usually waiting for us at our trucks.!!!!!! anyway its a shame that people that have the hobby we do have to be careful about trespassing. around here in madison county illinois its usually a problem because people leave behind their trash and cut down fences etc. anyway getting ready for the worst winter storm in along time here. major ice and a possibility of up to 3 feet of snow. CAN YOU HUNT ARROWHEADS IN HAWAII !!!!!! again thanks for all the advice . steve in alaska ........... i mean illinois

 

[Joe Hoo?]

thanks to all that replied. i always try to get permission but where we hunt its hard to find the owner until its to late. meaning they are usually waiting for us at our trucks.!!!!!! anyway its a shame that people that have the hobby we do have to be careful about trespassing. around here in madison county illinois its usually a problem because people leave behind their trash and cut down fences etc. anyway getting ready for the worst winter storm in along time here. major ice and a possibility of up to 3 feet of snow. CAN YOU HUNT ARROWHEADS IN HAWAII !!!!!! again thanks for all the advice . steve in alaska ........... i mean illinois

your not too far from me, always in alton when it gets warm... love to fish the dam up there... plus i have friends in e alton bethalto, south roxana, woodriver..... enjoy the icestorm coming our way...... lmao