Dowsing test

A lot of the studies and experiments listed, though, either gave inconclusive or more study needed as their conclusion,
That's a Scientfic Term for I am not going to stick my neck out for this project...

Chadwick, D.G. and Jensen, L. 1971. The detection of magnetic fields caused by groundwater and the correlation of such fields with water dowsing. Utah Water Research Laboratory Report PRWG 78-1, January 1971, U.S. Geological Survey, Water Resources Division.

The work of Chadwick and Jensen (1971) appears to be the first documented experiment carried out under double blind conditions which was relevant to the dowsing problem. Chadwick, the experimenter, was a sceptic, and did not know the correct answers. 150 subjects were tested, mostly novice dowsers. A path was chosen leading through a park, with no known features. Subjects were asked to place small wooden blocks where they felt they were getting a reaction or field . The positions of the blocks were noted after each run, and removed before the next run. When all the subjects had been tested, a conventional magnetometer survey was carried out along the path. The correlations between the subjects and the magnetometry were found to be statistically significant at the .05 level. There was therefore some evidence of correlation between magnetic gradient changes and dowsing reactions. The conclusions were that there are sufficient statistically significant results to warrant further investigations.
 

Duane Chadwick and Larry Jensen, electrical engineers from Utah State University, produced one of the most detailed reports of a preliminary investigation concerning magnetic fields and dowsing. In a series of experiments (Chadwick and Jensen, 1971), a number of subjects, most without previous dowsing experience, separately walked along several pre-assigned paths with dowsing rods (mainly L-rods). They were given a set of wooden blocks and asked to place a block at each location where they obtained a dowsing reaction. After the dowsers had traversed the path, a magnetic survey was carried out.

A statistical analysis was made to determine whether there was any patterning of the dowsers’ responses. Chadwick and Jensen found that on certain portions of the path, dowsers were much more likely to experience dowsing reactions. The probabilities of this patterning (more reactions in some areas than others) occurring by chance ranged from p = 0.06 to p < 0.0005. If this were a parapsychological experiment, one might conclude that a very strong stacking effect was observed.

Chadwick and Jensen gave a graphical representation of the relation between the dowsers’ responses and the magnetic field but did not present a full statistical evaluation of these data; so it is not clear whether the correlation would be statistically significant (though it well may be). In areas with a gradient of 0.5 gamma per foot (0.000016 gauss per metre), more reactions were obtained than when the gradient was less.

In some experiments an iron bar was buried along the test path and there was reportedly no visual indication of its presence. The iron bar produced a distinct magnetic anomaly. From the graphical data presented it seems unlikely that the number of dowsing reactions near the bar was due to chance.

In another experiment the subjects were given 30 wooden blocks and were asked to drop them wherever they felt like it while on an assigned path. The patterning of responses among the subjects was more consistent than would be expected by chance at the 10 per cent level. When compared with the magnetic survey, on the average there were as many reactions in areas with the gradient greater than 0.5 gamma per foot (0.000016 gauss per metre) as in cases with a smaller gradient. It appears that this method which requires some conscious involvement to achieve a dowsing response was not effective. The apparently unconscious movement of the dowsing rods seems to make for greater accuracy.

Chadwick and Jensen did present calculations to show that the expected change in the magnetic field due to an aquifer (an underground formation containing water) could be as high as 0.0043 gauss. From previous data it seems that a dowser might be able to detect this. However, Chadwick and Jensen did not conclude that dowsing was necessarily an efficacious method of locating underground water. They noted that no wells had been dug in their study, that the type of information actually used by the dowsers was undefined, and that the patterning of the dowsers’ responses was not necessarily due to magnetic anomalies. Although they did not conclude that dowsers were sensitive to magnetic anomalies, they did conclude that further research was warranted and recommended that extraterrestial radiation be monitored during testing, or that tests be conducted in an environment shielded from all extraneous magnetic influences. They also noted that it is not clear which (if any) magnetic field the dowser might be detecting (e.g. field at ground level, at head level, gradients in vertical or horizontal plane, etc.).


I don't doubt the experiment was performed exactly as mentioned, but it seems like a more definitive test would have included incorporating the double-blind factor (it was not mentioned here) and less of a "shotgun" criteria for their results.
In essence, they had mostly non-dowsers putting blocks where they thought the dowsing rods had reacted. The problem is that anything at all that caused the rods to cross was considered a "hit." This, combined with the fact that they were walking predetermined paths, might have caused something like this:
Path "A" ran between a stand of trees, across a creek bed, down a hill and beside a house.
X number of dowsers placed blocks at the beginning of the trees, at the top of the hill, just after the river, and near the corner of the house. Maybe it was 50% or 80%, but what has to be looked at is the conditions of those locations during the test. Was it windy? Was it cold, or maybe getting dark? Did the terrain rise and fall with rocky soil? Could there be a reason other than some dowsing phenomenon that caused the blocks to be placed there?
It just seems like there are too many variables to offer a conclusion, but it could be the basis for fruiter, perhaps similar tests.
 

Hey af1733....We had a few people that were part of the study give us a report. They were all positive about the study. I know they are here some place but I could not find them....Art
 

What part of the study were they positive about? What I wrote was essentially a breakdown of the report that I posted, except for my description of the path scenario.

At any rate, the most significant thing I read was that there was a pattern related to magnetic anomalies, but the report even states that "the patterning of the dowsers’ responses was not necessarily due to magnetic anomalies" due to the fact that target locations were not verified and the dowsers did not all report using the same responses from the rods to make their decisions.
 

At any rate, the most significant thing I read was that there was a pattern related to magnetic anomalies, but the report even states that "the patterning of the dowsers’ responses was not necessarily due to magnetic anomalies" due to the fact that target locations were not verified and the dowsers did not all report using the same responses from the rods to make their decisions.

Gee af1733.....The Dowsers didn't report the same response from the Rods...What's the problem with that ...That's how it works.....Art
 

aarthrj3811 said:
At any rate, the most significant thing I read was that there was a pattern related to magnetic anomalies, but the report even states that "the patterning of the dowsers&#146; responses was not necessarily due to magnetic anomalies" due to the fact that target locations were not verified and the dowsers did not all report using the same responses from the rods to make their decisions.

Gee af1733.....The Dowsers didn't report the same response from the Rods...What's the problem with that ...That's how it works.....Art
The problem with it is that since they were not dowsers, just random folks, who is to say what they considered to be a response since this was not mentioned in the report?
Dowser A thought a response was when he closed the rods.
Dowser B thought a response was when he opened the rods.
Dowser C thought a response was when both rods pointed in one direction.
Dowser D stuck the rods in his pocket and sat down for a smoke, and dropped his blocks randomly.
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
 

Hey af1733...You are assuming again...you put the word he before some of the responses. The real facts are that the rods may respond different for each person. That is why you practice until you know what they are telling you. You already know this fact so why are you questioning it again? You running out of snide remarks? ...Art
 

aarthrj3811 said:
Hey af1733...You are assuming again...you put the word he before some of the responses. The real facts are that the rods may respond different for each person. That is why you practice until you know what they are telling you. You already know this fact so why are you questioning it again? You running out of snide remarks? ...Art
You know, I actually thought about putting he/she in there, but I figured even you would know that I was only expressing a thought. Oh well....

The "real facts", huh? Interesting statement. Did you have to throw in real to convince yourself?

One of the problems with the experiment you cited is that it was not mentioned how the tested individuals were asked to perform the experiment. Did the testers tell them to drop a block where the rods closed? If they did, and since it is a "real fact" that the rods work differently for everyone, then not all the people dropped their blocks in the right spot, so the results are flawed.

Do you think before you post a response, Art? I'm beginning to wonder...
 

Hey Af ..Give them a call and ask them...I was not there...Art
 

aarthrj3811 said:
Hey Af ..Give them a call and ask them...I was not there...Art
Hmmm, then how come you defend the test as it was presented, Art? I'm not implying that you were there, but you have to look at the material presented and question any points that need clarification. A successful experiment will consider all possibilities before presenting a conclusion. Since the presented conclusion of the Chadwick and Jensen tests was, essentially, inconclusive, then it can be thought that this test did not take all variables into account.

And, since I asked several posts ago if you knew of a scientifically accepted double-blind or non double-blind experiment that has been carried out in regards to dowsing that showed better-than-chance results, this question still remains unanswered.
 

Hey af1733....If your waiting for a scientifically accepted study you many have a long wait. Those guys seldom agree on anything. Randi has been offering prove for 42 years. So far his results are 0....Art
 

Af, I don't mean to get in on your conversation concerning this study...but all you're doing is arguing the definition of a "dowsing reaction".

It says right in the thing, "...where they obtained a dowsing reaction."

This is quite clear, where they got a reaction they put a block down.

"A successful experiment will consider all possibilities before presenting a conclusion."

Arguing what they mean by a "dowsing reaction" is a quite futile attempt to raise question about its credibility as a study.

But this point alone am I speaking of, the study itself I haven't yet had the time to familiarize myself with.
 

Sandy,
Feel free to involve yourself. Input is a good thing. I posted a summarization of the study about 7 posts ago.

According to Art, a dowsing reaction means many things to many people. My argument is, what were the subjects told to look for when looking for a reaction? If it's true that many of them had never dowsed, then they wouldn't have any idea, unless they knew something about dowsing before the test.
Were the subjects asked to place a block wherever their rods crossed? This would work, but Art seems to think that signals are different for different people, so they might have ignored any other actions by the rods.
Were the subjects asked to place a block wherever their rods moved at all? Then we would have to know the pre-determined routes they were traveling, as wind, uphill or downhill treks, uneven surfaces or even passing under trees with low-hanging branches could cause a reaction in the same spot for many people.
In fact, I just noticed that the response types from the subjects were not recorded or known.
At any rate, all the study was able to conclude was that more study was required, and future tests needed to be held in a more controlled environment to eliminate outside influences.
 

At any rate, all the study was able to conclude was that more study was required, and future tests needed to be held in a more controlled environment to eliminate outside influences.

Whats wrong with that conclution? That's the way Scentific Knowledge is collected. It's part of the job...Art
 

aarthrj3811 said:
At any rate, all the study was able to conclude was that more study was required, and future tests needed to be held in a more controlled environment to eliminate outside influences.

Whats wrong with that conclution? That's the way Scentific Knowledge is collected. It's part of the job...Art
There's nothing wrong with the conclusion, but it does mean that this experiment can't be used to support dowsing, as you claim it does.
 

Was it a Scentific study done by Scentific Methods? The conclusion is what is found with most scentific studies.....Art

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning[1].

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry serve to bind more specific hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.

Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective so that the scientist does not bias the interpretation of the results or change the results outright. Another basic expectation is that of making complete documentation of data and methodology available for careful scrutiny by other scientists and researchers, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempted reproduction of them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of the results to be established. The scientific method also may involve attempts, if possible and appropriate, to achieve control over the factors involved in the area of inquiry, which may in turn be manipulated to test new hypotheses in order to gain further knowledge.
 

You should make it a little less apparent when you cut-and-paste, Art and make it applicable to the conversation, or at least to your arguement. Let's see:
aarthrj3811 said:
Was it a Scentific study done by Scentific Methods? The conclusion is what is found with most scentific studies.....Art

Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results.
This was not applied in the Chadwick and Jensen test.
aarthrj3811 said:
Another basic expectation is that of making complete documentation of data and methodology available for careful scrutiny by other scientists and researchers, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempted reproduction of them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of the results to be established.
This was not applied in the Chadwick and Jensen test.
aarthrj3811 said:
The scientific method also may involve attempts, if possible and appropriate, to achieve control over the factors involved in the area of inquiry, which may in turn be manipulated to test new hypotheses in order to gain further knowledge.
This was not applied in the Chadwick and Jensen test.

Everything you repeated here was correct, but did not apply to the test you referred to.
 

Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning[1].

Seems to me that you are in error....It reads like they did the experiment by the book...Art
 

aarthrj3811 said:
Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning[1].

Seems to me that you are in error....It reads like they did the experiment by the book...Art

The question is, though, did you actually read the experiment? ???

There was no real hypotheses stated by the pair when they began their tests, so there was no way to check their accuracy, and they could in no way make future predictions based on their results.
The pair stated that they did not accurately document the data and methodology of the tests for posterity or their own records, and as a result any attempts to duplicate their research would produce unreliable results in reference to their primary tests.
And...the pair made no attempt to control any outside factors that may have contributed to skewing their findings.

You're the one that cited this experiment as scientifically accepted and providing better-than-chance results in dowsing, and you're the one that provided the definitions of several scientific methods. It's a pity you didn't read them both before you posted.

Just because the words "better-than-chance" appear in a document doesn't mean you've found proof of something, Art. Is that what you thought the experiment was?
 

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