DR Heating Up

[WaveJunky757]

Hello everyone. I have been lurking and reading this forum for 3years on a nightly basis, decided to make my first post. Native of Virginia, just turned 30, and have been addicted to this site and treasure salvage of the carribean for the past three years. It truly is a psychosis. I have been reading any and all literature as fast as I can obtain it. I know this is a tight knit community with a lot of "big names" and "personalities". it seems like some things are discussed more than others, and stories are always, perhaps not exactly what they seem. Not sure if anyone else is excited as I am about the new happenings (or updates) on my favorite and most intriguing wreck on the silver shoals. Just surprised there hasant been more chatter about this... As always I never mean to step on any toes. Thank you everyone for making this forum what it is.

 

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[old man]

Wavejunk757, Welcome to tnet.

 

[Boatlode]

Not sure if anyone else is excited as I am about the new happenings (or updates) on my favorite and most intriguing wreck on the silver shoals. Just surprised there hasant been more chatter about this...

So, start the chatter. Whats on your mind? And welcome.

FYI, Burt Webber attended our annual picnic last year.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I am certain that I have no idea what you are talking about. Are there shipwrecks in the Dominican Republic?

 

[ARC]

Mmm k... I will bite.

What / which wreck are you referring to ?

There are several known wrecks where you are referring.

Am I to presume this is a new wreck ?

Or are you asking about information on an existing site ?

 

[Salvor6]

AARC he said the wreck on Silver Shoals. The only one I know of is the Conception. I'm sure there is still more left. Tracy Bowen was the last one to work there. I haven't heard of anyone going back.

 

[WaveJunky757]

Unless I'm missing something or way behind the loop .. This is all public knowledge on a FB page so I feel like sharing it Is justified. Seems to be finding some good things, along with another wreck in the same area. (Is this really old news I'm just finding?)

 

[ropesfish]

John Mattera and John Chatterton from several years ago on the Silver Banks, before the present indefinite moratorium.
John M. posted these pictures in my Shipwreck Hunters Facebook group.

 

[WaveJunky757]

Thanks for the clarification. That's where I saw them. When it appears to good to be true, it usually is!

 

[ScubaFinder]

Jacques Cousteau found a wreck out there too that he couldn't identify. He always wanted to go back and get to the bottom of the wreck. His grandson Phillipe was planning an expediting out there to look at it again with his Travel Channel Show "Caribbean Pirate Treasure". When they wrapped up filming of the episode with Lubos and I, they were supposed to go investigate but the weather thwarted their efforts , as it had ours.

There are always whispers and rumors coming out of the Dominican Republic, but they are often conflicting. One side says full UNESCO signing is imminent, the other says permits for a few are coming soon. The truth is likely that they are telling both sides what they want to hear, and doing absolutely nothing at their usual blistering pace of "oh, wait...tomorrow is a holiday".

In my personal opinion, if you want to find and keep treasure in the Western Hemisphere, you'd better get yourself a 1715 sub-contract or a black flag.

Jason

 

[WaveJunky757]

I would imagine there's a lot of good stuff left down there. New wrecks. That reef looks like it would trap things nicely, but then the problem of it growing over anything of importance. You would think these poor countries would fully support people coming in and spending their own money for a 50% cut or greater.

 

[ropesfish]

I would imagine there's a lot of good stuff left down there. New wrecks. That reef looks like it would trap things nicely, but then the problem of it growing over anything of importance. You would think these poor countries would fully support people coming in and spending their own money for a 50% cut or greater.

Without naming particular people, countries or NGOs I can say with a high degree of certainty that Americans cannot fully comprehend how inconsistent, corrupt and just plain inept the governments of most small countries can be.
First, we all know that it is against US law to commit bribery in other countries. With that said, I am told that in most places that there are two reasons it doesn't work anway. One...you pay off one guy to get you to the guy above him only to find that he's expecting 'la mordida' (the bite) as well as is the guy above him...and none of them stay bought. Good ol' American fair play does not travel with us like a bubble of sanity. It's a different world out there.
In the Bahamas, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic alone, the treasure salvage business could easily be worth $50 million US to each country at a 50/50 split. It won't happen because most 3rd world politicians are too personally greedy (What's in it for me? Why should you get 50%? I want 10% of your 50%!) to make it work as well as being too short sighted to allow it for the good of their country. The Bahamas had a $400 million USD revenue shortfall last year as well as a $7.2 billion USD national debt, but they won't allow anyone to salvage. Jamaica had a $1.6 billion revenue shortfall with a $16.7 billion national debt and no one can salvage. Makes little sense to me.

 

[Black Duck]

Whats really going on

Without naming particular people, countries or NGOs I can say with a high degree of certainty that Americans cannot fully comprehend how inconsistent, corrupt and just plain inept the governments of most small countries can be.
First, we all know that it is against US law to commit bribery in other countries. With that said, I am told that in most places that there are two reasons it doesn't work anway. One...you pay off one guy to get you to the guy above him only to find that he's expecting 'la mordida' (the bite) as well as is the guy above him...and none of them stay bought. Good ol' American fair play does not travel with us like a bubble of sanity. It's a different world out there.
In the Bahamas, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic alone, the treasure salvage business could easily be worth $50 million US to each country at a 50/50 split. It won't happen because most 3rd world politicians are too personally greedy (What's in it for me? Why should you get 50%? I want 10% of your 50%!) to make it work as well as being too short sighted to allow it for the good of their country. The Bahamas had a $400 million USD revenue shortfall last year as well as a $7.2 billion USD national debt, but they won't allow anyone to salvage. Jamaica had a $1.6 billion revenue shortfall with a $16.7 billion national debt and no one can salvage. Makes little sense to me.

Guys once the ARS/GME case is over in a few months we think around or before April 30th or before, The attorney's on Jan 15th 2018 went before a 16 supreme court judge's , the last step before they decide this part of the case.
Remember ARS won the constitution part and our artifacts, now we are waiting on damages and getting the artifacts.
Also yes UNNESCO is trying there dirty tricks to get into the DR again, ( and they have this new Minister of Culture on board ) but they can not pass this as it would be a act of treason, in fact I was told by the head of congress him self this would never pass.But it is the DR And we have no-one in the government supporting us at this time. this is getting ready to possible change.
In 2 weeks I may be able to tell you more but lets see.
And no Punta Cana did not sign a agreement with Indiana Unv. through the Gov. Not sure where that rummer started "Lubos any idea"

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Bill, I'm no expert in the smaller Caribbean islands and I'm sure what you describe must the reality of many countries around the world. However, I would like to point out that Colombia has designed a fairly balance set of laws that allow for commercial archeology and academic considerations to go hand in hand. In the past years I have gotten to know the country and it many institutions well and I have found them to be professional and honest. I'm not saying that obtaining a permit for exploration and intervention there is easy, but it can be done.

Very soon it will become public the considerations of the recovery of the galleon San Jose. This will be Colombia first project under the new law. Hopefully other countries in the world will watch and learn.

Without naming particular people, countries or NGOs I can say with a high degree of certainty that Americans cannot fully comprehend how inconsistent, corrupt and just plain inept the governments of most small countries can be.
First, we all know that it is against US law to commit bribery in other countries. With that said, I am told that in most places that there are two reasons it doesn't work anway. One...you pay off one guy to get you to the guy above him only to find that he's expecting 'la mordida' (the bite) as well as is the guy above him...and none of them stay bought. Good ol' American fair play does not travel with us like a bubble of sanity. It's a different world out there.
In the Bahamas, Jamaica, and the Dominican Republic alone, the treasure salvage business could easily be worth $50 million US to each country at a 50/50 split. It won't happen because most 3rd world politicians are too personally greedy (What's in it for me? Why should you get 50%? I want 10% of your 50%!) to make it work as well as being too short sighted to allow it for the good of their country. The Bahamas had a $400 million USD revenue shortfall last year as well as a $7.2 billion USD national debt, but they won't allow anyone to salvage. Jamaica had a $1.6 billion revenue shortfall with a $16.7 billion national debt and no one can salvage. Makes little sense to me.

 

[ropesfish]

Bill, I'm no expert in the smaller Caribbean islands and I'm sure what you describe must the reality of many countries around the world. However, I would like to point out that Colombia has designed a fairly balance set of laws that allow for commercial archeology and academic considerations to go hand in hand. In the past years I have gotten to know the country and it many institutions well and I have found them to be professional and honest. I'm not saying that obtaining a permit for exploration and intervention there is easy, but it can be done.

Very soon it will become public the considerations of the recovery of the galleon San Jose. This will be Colombia first project under the new law. Hopefully other countries in the world will watch and learn.

Herman, you have a very good point. I sometimes paint with a very broad brush and can be guilty of not giving those who deserve some accolades their due.
As you say, Colombia has put in place some sensible legislation and regulations, and look to be making good strides in this area. Let us hope that the process goes smoothly, that both parties fulfill their contractual obligations and that their success begins a resurgence of common sense when it comes to the search and salvage business from Ecuador to the Azores...there is treasure to be found!!! Unimaginable treasures!

 

[signumops]

At the moment I am writing the biography of Burt D. Webber, Jr. He has furnished me with a great deal of information regarding Colombia and its recent maritime salvage laws and was instrumental in its design as a witness to their general assembly. He also applied for permits there subsequently and the result was a simple evasion by the authorities who are charged with oversight, a ploy used here in Florida as well. The respective evidence is overwhelming and there will be little doubt once you've read the detailed communications between Webber and Colombia. Furthermore, in the DR, where an exemplary program of government-salvor cooperation has functioned very, very well for many years, the sleight of hand is more absolute. Rick Perry, Tracey Bowden, Burt Webber, and Bobby Pritchett are now found to be blocked from further work, and in some instances, are cheated of their dues, as DR has failed to return control of artifacts some of those men have recovered under the existing law and within the contractual obligation settled between the salvors and the government when the search and salvage ventures were planned and executed. The DR's museums have been filled with artifacts, without cost to the people of DR. All of this work was well regulated and in the sunshine.

Having a law is one thing... having it administered is another. Where legislators might intend for a given law to serve the welfare of the nation, over-reach by administrators of those laws, along with bureaucrats ad nausem, effectively reduce the legislative intent, and end up becoming the tools of self-serving interests. It seems that this is being done with impunity here in the U.S. and elsewhere as we move toward globalism.

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Signumps, thank you for your comments. I think they are correct. That's why I said that even though Colombia has crafted a good law, that does not necessary means is easy to obtain a permit over there. I'm in no position here to speak for the government of Colombia. My understanding is that they reserve the right to choose whatever project they deem appropriate for their country (as they should). They put a lot of emphasis in academic and scientific approach, vs a salvage or treasure hunting approach. Mr. Webber is one of the most famous American treasure hunters (I personally hate the definition or categorization of the words "treasure hunter" but thats the realm the archeological community has successfully corner this industry in). My guess is that he could not escaped his own fame. Good luck with your book! I certainly would like to be one the first ones to buy a copy of it and maybe ask Burt if he will be kind enough to sign it for me.

 

[Black Duck]

Bill, I'm no expert in the smaller Caribbean islands and I'm sure what you describe must the reality of many countries around the world. However, I would like to point out that Colombia has designed a fairly balance set of laws that allow for commercial archeology and academic considerations to go hand in hand. In the past years I have gotten to know the country and it many institutions well and I have found them to be professional and honest. I'm not saying that obtaining a permit for exploration and intervention there is easy, but it can be done.

Very soon it will become public the considerations of the recovery of the galleon San Jose. This will be Colombia first project under the new law. Hopefully other countries in the world will watch and learn.

MAI I hear what u are saying BUT, Columbia is saying the NAVY found the ship and that the NAVY os doing the work this is there agreement with the contractor really doing the work so I hear, in the end these people will get screwed more than likely, You can not work with a country unless you have a iron clad contract and you can talk about it, any thing less is going to bite you in the ass.
I know I (GME) am in three court case right now, and its all because the people in the government and UNESCO not wanting privet sector company's doing this work.So they lie and make you go to court to prove them wrong.
And its Bobby Pritchett not Bill although I am sure he is on the same page

 

[Black Duck]

MAI I hear what u are saying BUT, Columbia is saying the NAVY found the ship and that the NAVY os doing the work this is there agreement with the contractor really doing the work so I hear, in the end these people will get screwed more than likely, You can not work with a country unless you have a iron clad contract and you can talk about it, any thing less is going to bite you in the ass.
I know I (GME) am in three court case right now, and its all because the people in the government and UNESCO not wanting privet sector company's doing this work.So they lie and make you go to court to prove them wrong.
And its Bobby Pritchett not Bill although I am sure he is on the same page

Also if you have to sneak around to do anything you are obesely doing something wrong, as in not wanting the world to know that privet sector contractors are doing the work in Columbia not the NAVY

Trying to please UNESCO and the NAZI archaeologist is not going to solve this problem.Sorry i could not think of anything nice to say about anyone connected to UNESCO, what a waste of good money and human resorces

 

[Marine Archaeology Int.]

Bobby, thanks for the correction. Not sure what do you mean when you say that "the NAVY found the ship". I presume you refer to the San Jose, which was found by an Canadian-American consortium. The original work was conducted from a Colombian oceanographic vessel named Mal Pelo, that was charted by the consortium. Allegedly, Woodshole provided the technology. The NAVY did not find the shipwreck, even though they can take credits for being part of the project. President Santos bragged a little about the role of his government and its institutions, but I think that is normal and valid since he worked so hard to make this law, and the subsequent discovery of the SJ, a reality. Also, Colombia is not a signatory to the UNESCO 2001 Convention, and for what I'm hearing in the underwater archaeology community, after almost 20 years the Convention is starting to loose some of its appeal and a few countries are reconsidering the ratification of the treaty. We will see... And this is why is so important that Colombia succeds in its endeavors.