Ely's description of where Ruth's body was found - an experiment...

[PotBelly Jim]

jim...i know the feldmans and can vouch for them...ted on the other hand...i never met him...the feldmans believe what cox wrote because they have investigated much of cox's writings and they checked out just like cox said...when i was a teenager cox used to write articles in treasure and western magazines..i read them and at the time i wrote cox off as being nuts...now i wish i would have paid more attention ...lol...there was another ldm hunter that i wrote off as being nuts ...he tried to pass on alot of info to me and i didnt listen...and now i kick myself....

Ha! Sounds alot like "Reiney, your not listening, that mine is hard to find!"

Yep, Ron covered it in his book too. Just think, if not for them, Teds story may have been lost to history...Feldmans are good people, I'm grateful they made all the efforts they did to bring the story out...more to follow I hope!!!!

 

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[deducer]

matthew...i also read somewhere (possibly cox notes or one of feldmans books ) that ted saw abe reed hauling ruth's body on a burro..coming from iron mountain...ted claims ruth was killed on the east end and hauled to the west end

Abe was a retired schoolteacher and a few people described him as a "gentle soul" even if he didn't look like one. I really doubt he had anything to do with the Ruth murder.

Kollenborn who knew Abe personally, calls such a theory "preposterous."

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Abe was a retired schoolteacher and a few people described him as a "gentle soul" even if he didn't look like one. I really doubt he had anything to do with the Ruth murder.

Kollenborn who knew Abe personally, calls such a theory "preposterous."

Me neither. I noticed you said "Ruth murder". I agree...what do you think happened? I hope you know no matter what your beliefs I wont bust your chops or otherwise make an A$$ of myself. Genuinely interested in your opinion.

 

[deducer]

Me neither. I noticed you said "Ruth murder". I agree...what do you think happened? I hope you know no matter what your beliefs I wont bust your chops or otherwise make an A$$ of myself. Genuinely interested in your opinion.

Hi Jim,

No worries about busting my chops. I don't mind that if it's a legitimate discussion.

There was absolutely foul play involved with Ruth's death. When you look at the fact that he ran his mouth about having maps to anyone within earshot (recall his boasting to Tex's wife), you realize that it was just about inevitable.

I haven't really spent that much time on the Ruth mystery so my opinion is amateur at best, but I am of the suspicion that it wasn't Purnell/Keenan that did away with him. Their only job was to drop him off at a pre-arranged location where someone else would take over and force Ruth to reveal everything.

And no, he did not die anywhere near Willow Springs. My gut instinct is that he was murdered in the proximity of Pistol canyon on the west side of Peter's Mesa. The laurel grove down below seems to have been a relevant marker on a map Ruth was carrying.

Ruth was at this point, knowledgable about the Superstitions so there was no way he had "wandered off."

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hi Jim,

No worries about busting my chops. I don't mind that if it's a legitimate discussion.

There was absolutely foul play involved with Ruth's death. When you look at the fact that he ran his mouth about having maps to anyone within earshot (recall his boasting to Tex's wife), you realize that it was just about inevitable.

I haven't really spent that much time on the Ruth mystery so my opinion is amateur at best, but I am of the suspicion that it wasn't Purnell/Keenan that did away with him. Their only job was to drop him off at a pre-arranged location where someone else would take over and force Ruth to reveal everything.

And no, he did not die anywhere near Willow Springs. My gut instinct is that he was murdered in the proximity of Pistol canyon on the west side of Peter's Mesa. The laurel grove down below seems to have been a relevant marker on a map Ruth was carrying.

Ruth was at this point, knowledgable about the Superstitions so there was no way he had "wandered off."

deducer,

You are on the right trail.
There are those who will say the account Walter Gassler gave of Tex Barkley finding Ruth on Peters Mesa and moving his body is not true. That either Tex or Walter lied, or both.

But consider this. When Tex told this story to Walter he not only implicated himself, he implicated the man who helped him move Ruth's body (Tom Dickens).
And consider that Tom Dickens was alive and well and available to Gassler when Tex told the story to Walter.
Had the story not been true, Barkley might have implicated himself, but surely not another person who was still alive.

Best,

Matthew

 

[Cubfan64]

I'm sensing that this thread may be running out of gas. I'll post a few more things tonight or tomorrow (we have another snow storm coming tomorrow so I'll likely be doing work from home tomorrow) including where I think the Manganese angle started (thank you Garry for finding that), as well as some photo's that Greg Davis shared with me regarding where Ruth's skull was DEFINITELY found (thank you Greg) - both old photos from the discovery as well as newer photos of the same area.

Beyond that, I believe I've convinced myself at least that following Ely's directions LITERALLY from his book cannot be done with any degree of accuracy, and that more than a few interpretations can be made from those same directions that place the site of Ruth's death in any number of locations - none of which are where the skull and skeleton were actually found.

I know it doesn't do much if anything for trying to discover a source of gold, but from a historical perspective it's made for an interesting discussion - at least for me . Thanks to all who chimed in with their thoughts.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Jim,

No worries about busting my chops. I don't mind that if it's a legitimate discussion.

There was absolutely foul play involved with Ruth's death. When you look at the fact that he ran his mouth about having maps to anyone within earshot (recall his boasting to Tex's wife), you realize that it was just about inevitable.

I haven't really spent that much time on the Ruth mystery so my opinion is amateur at best, but I am of the suspicion that it wasn't Purnell/Keenan that did away with him. Their only job was to drop him off at a pre-arranged location where someone else would take over and force Ruth to reveal everything.

And no, he did not die anywhere near Willow Springs. My gut instinct is that he was murdered in the proximity of Pistol canyon on the west side of Peter's Mesa. The laurel grove down below seems to have been a relevant marker on a map Ruth was carrying.

Ruth was at this point, knowledgable about the Superstitions so there was no way he had "wandered off."

Hi Deducer,

Thanks for the response, my own personal take is that Purnell and Keenan knew nothing about who grabbed Ruth, but whoever got Ruth knew EXACTLY what Keenan and Purnell were up to. My reasoning behind that: If those two knew anything about it, the police would have rolled up all the bad guys up right away...I think the police suspected them, but were perplexed when they couldn't get much of anything out of them...AZ hadn't met Miranda yet, so I'm sure their interrogation tactics were a bit more convincing back then.

Another thing that might support that: I've had several instances where, as a low-level cog in the machine, something I was working on attracted the attention of senators, congressmen, or various staffers...without exception this resulted in the immediate explosion of my commanding officer...all they cared about was that I get off the politicians radar fast, and not screw it up in the process. Ruth's case had some of those political elements, so the easiest thing for the police to do would have been to make an arrest, then kick it up to the DA and let them take all the heat and interest from the politcos. So I think the police knew there was some convincing exculpatory evidence so the DA wouldn't have touched Keenan and Purnell and the whole thing would have been dumped right back in their lap. There was something concrete there that ruled those two out. Best regards, Jim

EDIT: Repeated from below:

Deducer, after I re-read my post it seemed like I was saying, "Thanks, but here's what I think..." What I intended was for it to read, "Thanks for taking the time to tell me what conclusions you've made...I agree, it makes sense, and since you shared your ideas I hope what I'm about to say contributes to the discussion..."

 

[azdave35]

Hi Deducer,

Thanks for the response, my own personal take is that Purnell and Keenan knew nothing about who grabbed Ruth, but whoever got Ruth knew EXACTLY what Keenan and Purnell were up to. My reasoning behind that: If those two knew anything about it, the police would have rolled up all the bad guys up right away...I think the police suspected them, but were perplexed when they couldn't get much of anything out of them...AZ hadn't met Miranda yet, so I'm sure their interrogation tactics were a bit more convincing back then.

Another thing that might support that: I've had several instances where, as a low-level cog in the machine, something I was working on attracted the attention of senators, congressmen, or various staffers...without exception this resulted in the immediate explosion of my commanding officer...all they cared about was that I get off the politicians radar fast, and not screw it up in the process. Ruth's case had some of those political elements, so the easiest thing for the police to do would have been to make an arrest, then kick it up to the DA and let them take all the heat and interest from the politcos. So I think the police knew there was some convincing exculpatory evidence so the DA wouldn't have touched Keenan and Purnell and the whole thing would have been dumped right back in their lap. There was something concrete there that ruled those two out. Best regards, Jim

about all i can add to the story is one of the locals has a map that was supposedly taken from ruth when he was killed...i got a glimpse of the map and all i remember is it was a big map..maybe 2 ft square or bigger

 

[PotBelly Jim]

about all i can add to the story is one of the locals has a map that was supposedly taken from ruth when he was killed...i got a glimpse of the map and all i remember is it was a big map..maybe 2 ft square or bigger

Dave, do you think it was the TOPO or something else?

Deducer, after I re-read my post it seemed like I was saying, "Thanks, but here's what I think..." What I intended was for it to read, "Thanks for taking the time to tell me what conclusions you've made...I agree, it makes sense, and since you shared your ideas I hope what I'm about to say contributes to the discussion..."

Sorry guys, still trying to get the hang of internet forum etiquette, and how not to sound like a jerk when I write something. Best regards, Jim

 

[Cubfan64]

Here is where I believe the "manganese" angle started from. Joe hasn't clarified yet whether what he found in Little Boulder Canyon was a magnetite, magnesite or manganese ore deposit, but from earlier posts on other forums he referred to it as manganese which is where he brought up the idea of Erwin and Adolph possible being interested in manganese deposits so this if I recall correctly is where he put that link together.

This is a transcript Garry Cundiff made of a paper written by a member of the Continental Club that Erwin was a member of. Rather than post the entire thing, I just clipped the reference to manganese. Consider however that the dates that Erwin was involved in the manganese business were 5 years after Adolph's fateful trip.




Personally I don't think Adolph Ruth was out there looking for a manganese deposit - too much evidence he was looking for a gold mine (maps, talk, etc...)

 

[Cubfan64]

In post #3 of this thread, Matthew posted a copy of a Greg Davis topo map showing the locations where Ruth's skull and skeleton were found. Most folks know at least the rough idea of where those locations were, but below are a couple lesser known photographs taken at the time of the finding of the skull by one of the archaeology expedition members (Ed Newcomber) who was there to photograph for the newspaper article associated with the expedition.

Thank you to Greg Davis for allowing me to post these photos:

 

[azdave35]

Dave, do you think it was the TOPO or something else?

Deducer, after I re-read my post it seemed like I was saying, "Thanks, but here's what I think..." What I intended was for it to read, "Thanks for taking the time to tell me what conclusions you've made...I agree, it makes sense, and since you shared your ideas I hope what I'm about to say contributes to the discussion..."

Sorry guys, still trying to get the hang of internet forum etiquette, and how not to sound like a jerk when I write something. Best regards, Jim

jim..it was an old hand written map...from what i remember it was written by someone pretty illiterate.....it kinda makes sense to me ..if ruth was murdered and this map was taken from his body...just leave the 2 worthless maps on him to avoid suspicion

 

[Cubfan64]

This next photo is a more recent one (not sure of the date) taken by Greg Davis of the same location as the one by Ed Newcomber. Below is the corresponding top map Greg uses for each of his photos showing (in red) the location of the photo and the direction and approximate depth of field and focus.

 

[Cubfan64]

Next is a photo taken by Greg of Ron Lorenz standing beside the palo verde tree under which Ruth's skull was found. Below is the corresponding photo take in 1931 by Ed Newcomber.

 

[Cubfan64]

Next is a more close up shot of Ron Lorenz bending over in the same position that Brownie Holmes was positioned in the corresponding photo by Newcomber in 1931 under the same palo verde tree under which Ruth's skull was found - you can see the skull in the old photo.

 

[Cubfan64]

Finally here is part of the news article from the Arizona Republic 12-20-31 in which Harvey Mott describes (with some embellishment/flair) the discovery of Ruth's skull. There is also a newspaper photo of Weaver's Needle from an angle that can only be seen from Needle Canyon. Hopefully you can open and enlarge the article enough to read if you have a mind to.

 

[Cubfan64]

Last of all - I don't know if there were any newspaper or public photos of the location where Ruth's skeleton was discovered showing the surrounding area or showing the site from a distance in order to try to find the exact location today in the manner Greg did with the skull. I know there are a number of close up photos of Tex kneeling over some visible remains and assorted things found with the body, but I believe that was "staged" so to speak after they had gathered all the items from a rather larger area.

As I said, it looks like this thread has lost it's steam, but I appreciate everyone who played along - especially those who posted topo maps with ideas of where they interpreted Ruths' remains to have been found based on Ely's book. It reinforced my thinking on the matter and also further cemented how much stock I take in Ely's book which, while entertaining and a great introduction to the story, has glaring inaccuracies and at least in my mind must be taken with a grain of salt in a number of areas.

Thank you.

 

[wrmickel1]

about all i can add to the story is one of the locals has a map that was supposedly taken from ruth when he was killed...i got a glimpse of the map and all i remember is it was a big map..maybe 2 ft square or bigger

Dave

Could you take a pic of it with a Quarter beside it.lol
Got a look at it but you can't remember what's on it. Yah Yah

WOW! Babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Last of all - I don't know if there were any newspaper or public photos of the location where Ruth's skeleton was discovered showing the surrounding area or showing the site from a distance in order to try to find the exact location today in the manner Greg did with the skull. I know there are a number of close up photos of Tex kneeling over some visible remains and assorted things found with the body, but I believe that was "staged" so to speak after they had gathered all the items from a rather larger area.

As I said, it looks like this thread has lost it's steam, but I appreciate everyone who played along - especially those who posted topo maps with ideas of where they interpreted Ruths' remains to have been found based on Ely's book. It reinforced my thinking on the matter and also further cemented how much stock I take in Ely's book which, while entertaining and a great introduction to the story, has glaring inaccuracies and at least in my mind must be taken with a grain of salt in a number of areas.

Thank you.

Cubfan

I don't believe the article is correct, Medical report found no foul play. Ruth most likely died of natural causes.

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

Dave

Could you take a pic of it with a Quarter beside it.lol
Got a look at it but you can't remember what's on it. Yah Yah

WOW! Babymick1

mick...if i had the map i'd take a pic of it with a quarter beside it,,,just for you