Expected types of clues

[treasure1822]

Then why did you refer to him as Sir Henry Sinclair?

Again Dave, my apologies....force of habit, I do believe Sinclair to be a Templar and you do not so to be "Politically" correct "Henry Sinclair the First Earl of Orkney". But please, explained to me the references to Templar and Freemason in Rosslyn Chapel. Why would Henry even be referenced to the Templar if there was no connection.

 

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[Raparee]

Why would Henry even be referenced to the Templar if there was no connection.

Good question. There is nothing that indicates that Sinclair was a Templar. Why would people want to believe that he was?

 

[Smithbrown]

Ok, you do know that Rosslyn Chapel was built long, long after Sinclair died? Are you sure you are seeing Masonic symbols? And exactly how many other twice-married earls with large families have you identified as part-time Templars?

 

[Raparee]

Why would anyone believe that they disbanded? Because they faded out of the public eye? What would any of you do if you were hunted by country and church? Myself, falling back to regroup isn't a bad idea and going underground as it were make a lot more sense.

I suppose that people would think that the Templars disbanded, because as per the Chinon Parchment Pope Clement disbanded the order in 1312. Simple. And considering that so few members of the order were actually convicted of anything, there was no real reason to go underground. Myself, I would either had headed to Portugal or joined the Hospitallers as so many other Templars did.

 

[lokiblossom]

I suppose that people would think that the Templars disbanded, because as per the Chinon Parchment Pope Clement disbanded the order in 1312. Simple. And considering that so few members of the order were actually convicted of anything, there was no real reason to go underground. Myself, I would either had headed to Portugal or joined the Hospitallers as so many other Templars did.

Actually the Chinon Parchment, although dated to 1308, never surfaced until recently, although one was mentioned in the 17th century. I would question if it was even that old and that is was a recent ploy to distance the Church from the executions. At any rate, we do know that the original arrest order was for all the members of the order in France, of these members at least 2500 were unaccounted for. Many of those arrested were tortured and also many were executed including the Grand Master himself in 1314. Certainly not knowing what was in store for them and also knowing that the Pope had called for the arrest of all the Templars in Europe in November, Myself, I would have left Europe. It is correct that many did escape to Portugal where a new order was established, "The Knights of Christ". Also many went to Scotland (there is some evidence of this), which at the time was out of favor with the Church. Of those who escaped, none was higher ranking than Gerard de Villiers, who became the most wanted man in France and was never heard from again. As with all semi secret orders the Templers did have a secret inner circle, many believe that de Villiers was the leader of that group.

And btw, as long as we are trying to get facts straight, it wasn't the Chinon Parchment that disbanded the Order, it was a Papal Bull called dated 1312 that officially disbanded the Knights Templar Order!

One of those arrested Jean de Chalons, preceptor of the Templar commandery in Namur, testified that he had met Gerard de Villiers who had 50 horses with him, and had heard people talking that Gerard had put to sea with 18 galleys and the brother Hughes de Pairaud.

Now many are saying that this cannot be true because he testified under torture. I ask, first, was he even tortured and even if why would he lie, why that lie, and why is it so important that he would have lied? The fact is, it is important to those who call this whole argument "pseudo history", because if he didn't lie there is a mystery.

Cheers, Loki

 

[treasure1822]

Ok, you do know that Rosslyn Chapel was built long, long after Sinclair died? Are you sure you are seeing Masonic symbols? And exactly how many other twice-married earls with large families have you identified as part-time Templars?

1446AD, as I said 148 years after Henry's "SO Called" death....There are no details to his death except he died in battle at sea. I will tell you what, you present a documented list of Templar's from the 13th century. Common this should be no problem for you, There were over 250,000 Templar's near the end of the 13th century, they should have keep track of it right? The fact is like everyone else including myself, you have no Idea who was and was not a Templar but because it is not spelled out somewhere in black and white. So again I ask, what did "William Sinclair" the originator of Rosslyn Chapel know that the rest of the world didn't?

 

[treasure1822]

I suppose that people would think that the Templars disbanded, because as per the Chinon Parchment Pope Clement disbanded the order in 1312. Simple. And considering that so few members of the order were actually convicted of anything, there was no real reason to go underground. Myself, I would either had headed to Portugal or joined the Hospitallers as so many other Templars did.

No "Real Reason", 54 Knights Templar's imprisoned, tortured and sentenced to death by King Phillip IV of France with the backing of the church, "Pope Clement V", and they had no reason to go underground...with a estimated order of 250,000 Templar's and only 10 percent being militant. Ask yourself this, what would make people go to the end of the world to get away from the Crown and Church? You would actually believe the church or the crown when there reasoning was for selfish purposes. King Phillip owed the Templar's and didn't want to pay it back so with the backing of the church had the declared heretics. and your gonna believe them?

 

[treasure1822]

Good question. There is nothing that indicates that Sinclair was a Templar. Why would people want to believe that he was?

The Templar order supposedly disbanded 150 years prior and no Freemasons....where did they get the information to decorate "Rosslyn Chapel"? Simple question...30+ years before Columbus...How did they know to carve "Corn", Templar's symbol of two riders on a horse, how did they know that?

 

[treasure1822]

Actually the Chinon Parchment, although dated to 1308, never surfaced until recently, although one was mentioned in the 17th century. I would question if it was even that old and that is was a recent ploy to distance the Church from the executions. At any rate, we do know that the original arrest order was for all the members of the order in France, of these members at least 2500 were unaccounted for. Many of those arrested were tortured and also many were executed including the Grand Master himself in 1314. Certainly not knowing what was in store for them and also knowing that the Pope had called for the arrest of all the Templars in Europe in November, Myself, I would have left Europe. It is correct that many did escape to Portugal where a new order was established, "The Knights of Christ". Also many went to Scotland (there is some evidence of this), which at the time was out of favor with the Church. Of those who escaped, none was higher ranking than Gerard de Villiers, who became the most wanted man in France and was never heard from again. As with all semi secret orders the Templers did have a secret inner circle, many believe that de Villiers was the leader of that group.

And btw, as long as we are trying to get facts straight, it wasn't the Chinon Parchment that disbanded the Order, it was a Papal Bull called dated 1312 that officially disbanded the Knights Templar Order!

One of those arrested Jean de Chalons, preceptor of the Templar commandery in Namur, testified that he had met Gerard de Villiers who had 50 horses with him, and had heard people talking that Gerard had put to sea with 18 galleys and the brother Hughes de Pairaud.

Now many are saying that this cannot be true because he testified under torture. I ask, first, was he even tortured and even if why would he lie, why that lie, and why is it so important that he would have lied? The fact is, it is important to those who call this whole argument "pseudo history", because if he didn't lie there is a mystery.

Cheers, Loki

"The church disbanded".....Would you really do what the church said after it condemned your brothers to death for something they did not do? And so you don't get confused I meant "Brothers" in a fraternal way. The confession of De Molay and the rest of the Templar's was nothing more then the justification for the crown to seize property. Making them wanted men across Europe. Not a bad reason for the Templar's to go underground if they were to stay in Europe. And as for them coming to the New World, the only reason I could think of is keep what ever I had out of the hands of the very people that hunted me.

 

[Raparee]

The Templar order supposedly disbanded 150 years prior and no Freemasons....where did they get the information to decorate "Rosslyn Chapel"? Simple question...30+ years before Columbus...How did they know to carve "Corn", Templar's symbol of two riders on a horse, how did they know that?

... what makes you think it's corn?

 

[Raparee]

Actually the Chinon Parchment, although dated to 1308, never surfaced until recently, although one was mentioned in the 17th century. I would question if it was even that old and that is was a recent ploy to distance the Church from the executions. At any rate, we do know that the original arrest order was for all the members of the order in France, of these members at least 2500 were unaccounted for. Many of those arrested were tortured and also many were executed including the Grand Master himself in 1314. Certainly not knowing what was in store for them and also knowing that the Pope had called for the arrest of all the Templars in Europe in November, Myself, I would have left Europe. It is correct that many did escape to Portugal where a new order was established, "The Knights of Christ". Also many went to Scotland (there is some evidence of this), which at the time was out of favor with the Church. Of those who escaped, none was higher ranking than Gerard de Villiers, who became the most wanted man in France and was never heard from again. As with all semi secret orders the Templers did have a secret inner circle, many believe that de Villiers was the leader of that group.

And btw, as long as we are trying to get facts straight, it wasn't the Chinon Parchment that disbanded the Order, it was a Papal Bull called dated 1312 that officially disbanded the Knights Templar Order!

One of those arrested Jean de Chalons, preceptor of the Templar commandery in Namur, testified that he had met Gerard de Villiers who had 50 horses with him, and had heard people talking that Gerard had put to sea with 18 galleys and the brother Hughes de Pairaud.

Now many are saying that this cannot be true because he testified under torture. I ask, first, was he even tortured and even if why would he lie, why that lie, and why is it so important that he would have lied? The fact is, it is important to those who call this whole argument "pseudo history", because if he didn't lie there is a mystery.

Cheers, Loki

I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to suggest a Vatican conspiracy.

I am aware that Clement disbanded the order via papal bull ... and the disbanding is described in the Parchment.

I'm not saying that it cannot be true ... I am saying that testimony gained through torture is unreliable. A proven statement. But if you want to accept that claim as true, you would have to explain how 18 galleys, which would require hundreds of people to sail just vanished with no one noticing. All those people gone with no records... loading all that treasure and all those horses onto open galleys for anyone to see ... and no one saw ... Neat trick.

 

[lokiblossom]

I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to suggest a Vatican conspiracy.

I am aware that Clement disbanded the order via papal bull ... and the disbanding is described in the Parchment.

I'm not saying that it cannot be true ... I am saying that testimony gained through torture is unreliable. A proven statement. But if you want to accept that claim as true, you would have to explain how 18 galleys, which would require hundreds of people to sail just vanished with no one noticing. All those people gone with no records... loading all that treasure and all those horses onto open galleys for anyone to see ... and no one saw ... Neat trick.

You don't think there were Vatican conspiracies?

I can show that the ships were there and they did disappear, for one thing de Molay had just arrived from Cyprus with 10 galleys loaded with gold, silver, men and horses.

Part of de Chalons testimony was that the Order knew of the coming arrests, and a fact is that Philip the IV sent out the arrest orders a month before October the 13th. Certainly some Sheriff or Priest friendly to the Templars would have spilled the beans, which is what de Chalons meant when he indicated the vessels pulled out early. And also don't forget, we are probably talking about La Rochelle, a port the Templars themselves controlled, a fact I can also show if you wish.

Are you really saying all testimony gained through torture is unreliable? Because many books have been written based on the testimony of torture victims such as Otto Rahns "Crusade against the Grail".
And no, I don't think the disbanding is described in the Chinon Parchment.

Cheers, Loki

 

[treasure1822]

... what makes you think it's corn?

Can not really find anything else that come close to resemble it......What else does it resemble?

 

[Smithbrown]

perhaps you should check the work of botanist Adrian Dyer; it is summarized here: BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel By the way, do you ever consider the possibility that the carver just wasn't very good?

 

[Smithbrown]

And most sources agree on a much smaller number in the Order- 15-20,000, most not actually knights: Burman, Edward (1990). The Templars: Knights of God.

 

[treasure1822]

And most sources agree on a much smaller number in the Order- 15-20,000, most not actually knights: Burman, Edward (1990). The Templars: Knights of God.

I think that 15-20,000 from Wikipedia.....

"The Templars Go Underground
Liquidating the order of the Templars proved harder than anticipated. Even though Grand Master de Molay and many of his brothers had been eliminated, the order survived, albeit by going underground. In France alone, there were more than 9,000 representatives to be found and across the countries of Europe, thousands of castles and other strongholds were still in their possession.
According to historical sources of the time, the Inquisition had captured and punished only 620 out of a total of 2,000 knights. It has since been estimated that the knights' actual grand total was in the vicinity of 20,000, each of whom had a team of seven or eight Templars of other professions at his service. A simple calculation based on eight Templars per knight gives us a total number of 160,000 organizing and carrying out the order's activities, including shipping and commerce. The Pope and the French King couldn't possibly locate and confiscate all of their property.
This network of active members across Europe and along the Mediterranean coast, 160,000 strong, was the largest logistical force of their time. In terms of property, they could measure up to any king and this wealth assured their protection and safety. Despite the Papacy's claim that the Templars had been annihilated, not only did they survive the Inquisition by going underground, but they kept on being active, especially in England and in Northern Europe:"

THE DARK HISTORY OF THE TEMPLARS

250,000 Templars could have been total since the first Crusade. I will double check. But 160,000 is quite a bit.

 

[treasure1822]

perhaps you should check the work of botanist Adrian Dyer; it is summarized here: BBC - Religions - Christianity: Rosslyn Chapel By the way, do you ever consider the possibility that the carver just wasn't very good?

Woah! Have you seen the all the carvings? They don't look amateurish...

 

[lokiblossom]

I think that 15-20,000 from Wikipedia.....

"The Templars Go Underground
Liquidating the order of the Templars proved harder than anticipated. Even though Grand Master de Molay and many of his brothers had been eliminated, the order survived, albeit by going underground. In France alone, there were more than 9,000 representatives to be found and across the countries of Europe, thousands of castles and other strongholds were still in their possession.
According to historical sources of the time, the Inquisition had captured and punished only 620 out of a total of 2,000 knights. It has since been estimated that the knights' actual grand total was in the vicinity of 20,000, each of whom had a team of seven or eight Templars of other professions at his service. A simple calculation based on eight Templars per knight gives us a total number of 160,000 organizing and carrying out the order's activities, including shipping and commerce. The Pope and the French King couldn't possibly locate and confiscate all of their property.
This network of active members across Europe and along the Mediterranean coast, 160,000 strong, was the largest logistical force of their time. In terms of property, they could measure up to any king and this wealth assured their protection and safety. Despite the Papacy's claim that the Templars had been annihilated, not only did they survive the Inquisition by going underground, but they kept on being active, especially in England and in Northern Europe:"

THE DARK HISTORY OF THE TEMPLARS

250,000 Templars could have been total since the first Crusade. I will double check. But 160,000 is quite a bit.

There are several good histories that have been written on the Knights Templar, one I personally recommend is Charles Addison's 'History of the Knights Templar'.

According to another very good Templar historian, Edward Zaborovsky, there were probably a minimum of 3,000 of the orders members in France at the time of the arrests (13 Oct.1307), France, of course having the largest contingent. "the survived records of interrogations cast some light on the destiny of a little bit more than 600 brothers, and what happened to the others remains totally unknown to us" Zaborovsky.

Cheers, Loki

 

[Raparee]

Can not really find anything else that come close to resemble it......What else does it resemble?

Whatever it is ... is sure doesn't look like corn. If it is supposed to be corn, then we'd have to go with Smith's suggestion ... the carver just wasn't very good.

 

[treasure1822]

View attachment 1350983

Whatever it is ... is sure doesn't look like corn. If it is supposed to be corn, then we'd have to go with Smith's suggestion ... the carver just wasn't very good.

Wrong corn there slick....Try this....

When Rosslyn Chapel was founded, it was almost 50 years before Columbus and 148 years after Sinclair. So I would imagine he was carving from someone elses rendition of a ear of corn.....so I would imagine some leeway on "Quality".