Found a PERFECT point! Now...what is it?

[Flathead25]

Found this really pretty point in coastal Virginia this weekend. I'm normally swinging a detector but have just gotten in to the indian artifacts. I was told this is a Morrow Mountain point, but I figured I might post it and get some more info, if anyone has any. Much appreciated!

 

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[kingskid1611]

That is a beauty. Thanks for sharing. I too am a detector swinger but have in the past couple of years been swinging out to Indian Artifacts too.

 

[JJ1965]

Beautiful point. I don't think its a morrow mountain though....may be a Kirk of some kind....kirk serrated?

Look at the last photo example here: Kirk Serrated Projectile Point

 

[rock]

Very nice one

 

[Charl]

I would go with Kirk Stemmed, but if you read what it says on the page JJ1965 linked to, you can see it can be a bit confusing:

"Many argue that the Kirk Serrated and the Kirk Stemmed point are the same and do not distinguish between them. Others argue that they are separate points that need to be identified as separate points based on the base of the points (Justice, 1987). The Serrated point commonly has a concaved to bifurcated base while the stemmed point is most commonly straight, however, there are serrated straight bases and unserrated bifurcated examples. Johnson et al. (2009), argues that the base is the sole identifier for the different points and that not all Kirk Serrated points are serrated and that some of the Kirk Stemmed points are serrated."

Bottom line is it's a Kirk with serrations, but not a Kirk Corner Notched, which is a different point from the Kirk cluster. And it's a great point. Congrats.

 

[Flathead25]

Thanks for all of the info from everyone. I'm still having a hard time distinguishing the difference between all the different types of points but what amazes me the most is the amount of skill it took to make them. Here's another one I found on the same day that was broken.

 

[monsterrack]

Very nice finds and Charl nailed it.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I would call the first one a Kirk Stemmed Serrated Point. There are Kirk Stemmed Points that aren't serrated though, as Charl pointed out. Can we see a shot looking down on the base of the second Point? That may be a Decatur Point if it shows burins on the base.

 

[NCPeaches]

Love the serrated edges! That's a beauty!

 

[Bow Only]

"Many argue that the Kirk Serrated and the Kirk Stemmed point are the same and do not distinguish between them. Others argue that they are separate points that need to be identified as separate points based on the base of the points (Justice, 1987). The Serrated point commonly has a concaved to bifurcated base while the stemmed point is most commonly straight, however, there are serrated straight bases and unserrated bifurcated examples. Johnson et al. (2009), argues that the base is the sole identifier for the different points and that not all Kirk Serrated points are serrated and that some of the Kirk Stemmed points are serrated."

I'm not sure I fully understand this. We use basal configuration to distinguish point types but other characteristics of the point help distinguish when a point was made. I have some Kirk Serrated points and I think only one of them has a slightly bifurcated base. It is what I call an "Old Kirk". Provenience makes all the difference in the world and with the Archaic period being so long, there are many possible groups of people that lived during this time period. We don't know the dates the people that made the Kirk cluster points, but we can see the differences. I have probably studied them more than most. Here are some thoughts excluding the Kirk Corner Notch.

In NW FL, there were at least four distinct groups of Kirk peoples. These are groups (bands) of people who made specific types of Kirk points and most lived at different times during the Archaic period. There cultures were very similar and not distinguishable by anything other than the style of points they made. I call the first Kirks the "Old Kirks". I like to call the ones that everyone finds the regular Kirk points.. One could argue that Six Mile Creek and serrated Pickwicks could be included but they come later.

Varying Kirk Peoples or bands made these points:

1. Old Kirks - Some may put the LeCroy point in this group but they are a separate group of people.
2. Regular Kirk Serrated - what most people find. The only difference between Kirk Serrated and Kirk Stemmed is the serrations.
3. Abbeys and South Prong Creek (localized to the Tristate area)
4. The Kirks - A unique group of people that made extremely precise points. I had one site that made these points which makes me think these people we just passing through and didn't stay long. They made Kirks, but they aren't regular Kirks. I only found 15 or 20 points on this small, isolated site with no apparent water source. Of those points, several are in my good case and the others are exceptional. They liked big points, big and precise serrations and only used good materials. I don't feel these people lived as long ago as the other peoples due to the patination of the points. I lost access to this site a year or two after I was given permission to look it and only looked it a few times. They were magnificent craftsmen.

 

[dts52]

Those are both beautiful artifacts. Congrats. I don't know squat about classifications, but I know a beautiful point when I see one... and those are beautiful.
HH
dts

 

[Charl]

I'm not sure I fully understand this. We use basal configuration to distinguish point types but other characteristics of the point help distinguish when a point was made. I have some Kirk Serrated points and I think only one of them has a slightly bifurcated base. It is what I call an "Old Kirk". Provenience makes all the difference in the world and with the Archaic period being so long, there are many possible groups of people that lived during this time period. We don't know the dates the people that made the Kirk cluster points, but we can see the differences. I have probably studied them more than most. Here are some thoughts excluding the Kirk Corner Notch.

In NW FL, there were at least four distinct groups of Kirk peoples. These are groups (bands) of people who made specific types of Kirk points and most lived at different times during the Archaic period. There cultures were very similar and not distinguishable by anything other than the style of points they made. I call the first Kirks the "Old Kirks". I like to call the ones that everyone finds the regular Kirk points.. One could argue that Six Mile Creek and serrated Pickwicks could be included but they come later.

Varying Kirk Peoples or bands made these points:

1. Old Kirks - Some may put the LeCroy point in this group but they are a separate group of people.
2. Regular Kirk Serrated - what most people find. The only difference between Kirk Serrated and Kirk Stemmed is the serrations.
3. Abbeys and South Prong Creek (localized to the Tristate area)
4. The Kirks - A unique group of people that made extremely precise points. I had one site that made these points which makes me think these people we just passing through and didn't stay long. They made Kirks, but they aren't regular Kirks. I only found 15 or 20 points on this small, isolated site with no apparent water source. Of those points, several are in my good case and the others are exceptional. They liked big points, big and precise serrations and only used good materials. I don't feel these people lived as long ago as the other peoples due to the patination of the points. I lost access to this site a year or two after I was given permission to look it and only looked it a few times. They were magnificent craftsmen.

i'm not sure I completely understand it, either, which is why I found it confusing as written. Kirks of any style are very rare in New England. In 50+ years of surface hunting, I have only found a single example, a Kirk Stemmed. Our own most recent typology guide simply distinguishes Kirk Stemmed and Kirk Corner Notched. The one I found would be typed, here, as a Kirk Stemmed. It is serrated, but not with the finer types of serrations seen on the point in this thread.
I knew it was unusual when I found it, but I did not even recognize what it actually was until years after I picked it up. Exceedingly rare where I hunt, and in New England in general.

 

[Shane_Magnet]

Arrow head beutiful

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[Bow Only]

I wouldn't call it a Kirk. It may be from the same time period, but NE probably has a different name for it. Nice point.

 

[JJ1965]

I wouldn't call it a Kirk. It may be from the same time period, but NE probably has a different name for it. Nice point.

Richmond was capital of the CSA for a while. I call that the south.

 

[Charl]

I wouldn't call it a Kirk. It may be from the same time period, but NE probably has a different name for it. Nice point.

Yeah, I think you may be confusing my own find from the point in this thread, which was found in Virginia. As far as New England is concerned, Kirk Stemmed and Kirk Corner Notched are both recognized points here, and those type names are used here. The distribution maps used by Noel Justice also include New England for the occurrence of Kirk points.

 

[redbeardrelics]

That is a perfect little point ! Congratulations are due. It looks like the style and type of Kirk Stemmed points we find here on the Delmarva, which should not be surprising considering the proximity to where you found it. Over here they come in many forms and variants, but unfortunately are seldom as nice as yours appears to be.

 

[Flathead25]

I would call the first one a Kirk Stemmed Serrated Point. There are Kirk Stemmed Points that aren't serrated though, as Charl pointed out. Can we see a shot looking down on the base of the second Point? That may be a Decatur Point if it shows burins on the base.

Here's a shot of the base. Thanks for the info!

 

[scruggs]

Beautiful point you found! Hope you find many more!

 

[Trezurehunter]

That is a beauty.