Garbage all over mining claim

[northern_sierras]

I backpacked to a remote area a couple days ago on a creek and found a mining claim with garbage strewn everywhere. There was about 1/8th of an acre with literally every kind of trash you can imagine - old sleeping bags, gas cans, thousands of food cans, etc etc and a highbanker setup. I called the forest service and was told that the owner has had the claim for over 3 years and has already been told to clean up the mess. Im wondering what actions can be taken to have his claim removed from his ownership. I feel the forest service is undermanned out here and is not fully capable of dealing with this type of thing due to the loss of funds from the active fire season out here in cali.

 

[Bonaro]

That awkward moment when you discover the law doesn't say what you thought it did... Well this thread has been very informative and I appreciate that so thank you.

Now, just because there is no legal requirement to not turn an unpatented claim on public lands into a garbage dump or forfeit that claim doesn't mean anybody should decide that it's a good idea to turn an unpatented claim on public lands into a garbage dump. From what I've gathered, nobody can legally clean it up except for the claimant or the feds, and the feds aren't going to do it if at all possible. So then we're left with a garbage dump on public lands. Not cool.

There are legal restrictions about turning your claim into a dump, they just don't come from the feds and they dont include the penalty of the loss of your claim. Creating a dump is definitely not cool. The etiquette around cleaning it up is again similar to my analogy about your neighbor. If you go into your neighbors front yard and start cleaning his mess, you can expect him to be offended. If you throw away something that he places value on, that is theft even if it looks like trash to you.

 

[Clay Diggins]

There are legal restrictions about turning your claim into a dump, they just don't come from the feds and they dont include the penalty of the loss of your claim. Creating a dump is definitely not cool. The etiquette around cleaning it up is again similar to my analogy about your neighbor. If you go into your neighbors front yard and start cleaning his mess, you can expect him to be offended. If you throw away something that he places value on, that is theft even if it looks like trash to you.

Good explanation Bonaro.

I would add this about Forest Service policy. If any part of the trash left behind might be classed as hazardous waste the Forest Service policy is to contact the Forest Service Engineer who then hires outside companies to investigate, assess and clean up the trash.

So what is potentially hazardous material in the Forest Service world?

Any container that is closed is considered potentially hazardous. You know like a box, backpack or a can.
Any aerosol container like Cheese Whiz or air spray.
Any motor oil or gasoline containers.
Any fluorescent light bulbs.
Any batteries.
Anything with a flash point below 140[SUP]o[/SUP] like paint or bug spray.
Any thing that the Forest Service officer can't identify without touching.

The Forest Service will tell you that they don't have the budget to keep up with trash collection on their managed lands. The fact is they have changed their regulations to help prevent their employees from dealing directly with trash - that is now someone else's job. With the Forest Service budget being cut the bulk of their funds now go to law enforcement because the LEIs are GS5 and get the highest pay. Little money is left for contracting private PSC qualified trash collectors.

Tickets may be written after an investigation by the Forest Engineer but clean up is probably going to be a long way off if you are waiting for the Forest Service to do it.

It seems the suggestion to contact the claim owner directly to make sure they are aware of the situation and can deal with it if their property is involved would be a good start. If the trash isn't the property of the claim owner it's probably best resolved by removing the trash yourself.

There are good people working for the Forest Service who will do their best to clean up the forest no matter what the stupid "hazardous" policy says. Obviously the remote area where this trash was found is not an easy situation to deal with. Probably the least productive route is to contact Forest Service law enforcement if the objective is to get the trash out of the forest.

Heavy Pans

 

[Hefty1]

Originally Posted by CO2

That awkward moment when you discover the law doesn't say what you thought it did...


NOT AT ALL...

 

[goldenIrishman]

That awkward moment when you discover the law doesn't say what you thought it did... Well this thread has been very informative and I appreciate that so thank you.

Don't Feel bad CO2. I've been trying to learn as much about the laws surrounding mining for a couple of years now (with a LOT of help from Clay) and I still get tripped up by the "LEGALIZE" wording of many of them. Slowly but surely it has been coming together in a way my mind can wrap around it without cramping up.

Everyone here should be glad for the chance to expand their mining minds and that includes at least a basic understanding of the laws and regulations that govern our activities. Clay has been kind enough to help many of us to start to learn the ins and outs both here and on the MyLandMatters site. Between his input here and on his site I've been able to really up my gold hunting game by several levels.

 

[Bonaro]

That awkward moment when you discover the law doesn't say what you thought it did...

If gold mining were easy, everybody would be doing it

 

[Hoser John]

The REAL problem is....NEITHER the FS/BLM or filthy trashy high graders/homeless follow the law....any laws just preconceived notions of their current administrations...sic sic sic. The BLM/FS have showed up with D 9s, double tractors trailers to haul away tons/tons of homeless trash multiple times. Best one was holding class with 4 folks dredging and up pops BLM, with lab analysis, in haz/mat suits and hazmat truck full of containment barrels to dig up ungodly mess from mobile crank labs. Had to haul it all away,4 dredges and strike camp also. They dug and removed many dozens of 55 gallon sealed drums to McColl hazmat dumpsite,so there are some things you can't even see that are much worse than trash. -John

 

[KevinInColorado]

If its your property then why can't you mine on it? You are basically given a privilege from the government to be able to rent the land on very strict terms. Technically its not your land, but the governments.

Not quite Alexias.
1. The government does not own the land, the citizenry as a whole do. The governmental agencies administer the land on behalf of all of us. The government only "owns" the land under government facilities and such. You can tell what is owned by checking for a deed. There is not deed of ownership for public lands.
2. Also, it's not a privilege, it's a right, a very different thing in the eyes of the law.
3. Finally payments on a mining claim are not rent. They are essentially fees calculated to cover the direct cost of documenting your possessory right to the minerals on that land.

 

[russau]

Thankyou Kev!

 

[fowledup]

Speaking of trash. On my way home yesterday from the claim I stopped into the nearby Forest Service campground like I always do to dispose of my small bag of trash. As I get out of my truck the camp "host" pulls up along side and tells me I can't use "their" dumpsters. I ask why not. "Because these are "OUR" dumpsters and we pay alot of money to have the service and you didn't stay here." I purposely didn't tell him I had a mning claim a few miles away but said "No, you are correct I did not stay here in this camp however I did stay in this forest". He says "well these dumpsters are for "OUR" guests only". At that point, I knew where "OUR" conversation was heading, said F'it to myself, I was tired, wet, and getting very agitated. So I put my bag of trash back into my truck and thanked the idjit for doing his part to help keep America and "OUR" forests beautiful. Now today, I feel rested and rejuvenated so I plan on dedicating a few hours contacting the Forest Service and the vendor. I feel it necessary to make sure they understand that it is not the vendors dumpster and as a user of the forest and tax payer I have the right to dump a small bag of trash into the fricken dumpster. WTF happened to common courtesy, common sense and just plain ol being nice to people you meet. I don't look like a criminal whatever that is supposed to look like. I drive a nice vehicle, my gear is nice and clean, I don't look like a nomadic vagabond, hell 98% percent of the time I even have a smile on my face, especially when I''ve been at the claim- I don't know, I just don't get it. Maybe the guy that has the claim the OP is talking about is near me and he was told the same thing when he tried to use the dumpster!

 

[Goldwasher]

Speaking of trash. On my way home yesterday from the claim I stopped into the nearby Forest Service campground like I always do to dispose of my small bag of trash. As I get out of my truck the camp "host" pulls up along side and tells me I can't use "their" dumpsters. I ask why not. "Because these are "OUR" dumpsters and we pay alot of money to have the service and you didn't stay here." I purposely didn't tell him I had a mning claim a few miles away but said "No, you are correct I did not stay here in this camp however I did stay in this forest". He says "well these dumpsters are for "OUR" guests only". At that point, I knew where "OUR" conversation was heading, said F'it to myself, I was tired, wet, and getting very agitated. So I put my bag of trash back into my truck and thanked the idjit for doing his part to help keep America and "OUR" forests beautiful. Now today, I feel rested and rejuvenated so I plan on dedicating a few hours contacting the Forest Service and the vendor. I feel it necessary to make sure they understand that it is not the vendors dumpster and as a user of the forest and tax payer I have the right to dump a small bag of trash into the fricken dumpster. WTF happened to common courtesy, common sense and just plain ol being nice to people you meet. I don't look like a criminal whatever that is supposed to look like. I drive a nice vehicle, my gear is nice and clean, I don't look like a nomadic vagabond, hell 98% percent of the time I even have a smile on my face, especially when I''ve been at the claim- I don't know, I just don't get it. Maybe the guy that has the claim the OP is talking about is near me and he was told the same thing when he tried to use the dumpster!

Hey fowled I get where your coming from...and get your frustration....I have a thought...as I used to be and some times still look like a vagabond creep..and Have in my life met many camp hosts....
To many it is a dream retirement...I don't know if campgrounds will exist when I retire but my wife and I want to be hosts one day. even if it is one of the most thankless low paying things you could ever do....you will notice when you frequent certain areas that the same host works the same camp for years.
They clean the pit toilets organize the money from the steel pipe and deal with a whole heck of a lot flat lander jerks most of the year or season. trying to keep rowdies quiet after ten...and cleaning up after people that are eons behind you in your knowledge and respect of public lands.
Those hosts work for a private company... ALWAYS...they get very little directive from the F.S. or B.L.M. They do have an attitude and behavior representative of their position...and depending on their weekend they might want to try and stop one more person from dumping trash from outside of camp in their "Guests" receptacle......Sunday afternoon dumpsters at a lot of organized campsites well...they are pretty full sometimes....I would argue that as much as we shouldn't add to it from out of camp...."guests" should haul out a little as well....as most campgrounds have two dumpsters at most.
Keep yourself off of the office radar as you are....a call will have to go through several different lines and most like wont make it back to the host. I for one think making the official acquaintance of that host since you do come by his camp on a semi regular basis...let him know politely where you are coming from (forest use wise not your claim)...."check on him" every once in a while....tell him you are gonna be back by next Tuesday..."can I pick you up anything from town?"......We need more people on our side as ambassadors. That guy sits almost every evening with a different camper...shooting the $hit...talking politics...hunting...fishing...etc. We need friends like him.

 

[Hefty1]

Speaking of trash. On my way home yesterday from the claim I stopped into the nearby Forest Service campground like I always do to dispose of my small bag of trash. As I get out of my truck the camp "host" pulls up along side and tells me I can't use "their" dumpsters. I ask why not. "Because these are "OUR" dumpsters and we pay alot of money to have the service and you didn't stay here." I purposely didn't tell him I had a mning claim a few miles away but said "No, you are correct I did not stay here in this camp however I did stay in this forest". He says "well these dumpsters are for "OUR" guests only". At that point, I knew where "OUR" conversation was heading, said F'it to myself, I was tired, wet, and getting very agitated. So I put my bag of trash back into my truck and thanked the idjit for doing his part to help keep America and "OUR" forests beautiful. Now today, I feel rested and rejuvenated so I plan on dedicating a few hours contacting the Forest Service and the vendor. I feel it necessary to make sure they understand that it is not the vendors dumpster and as a user of the forest and tax payer I have the right to dump a small bag of trash into the fricken dumpster. WTF happened to common courtesy, common sense and just plain ol being nice to people you meet. I don't look like a criminal whatever that is supposed to look like. I drive a nice vehicle, my gear is nice and clean, I don't look like a nomadic vagabond, hell 98% percent of the time I even have a smile on my face, especially when I''ve been at the claim- I don't know, I just don't get it. Maybe the guy that has the claim the OP is talking about is near me and he was told the same thing when he tried to use the dumpster!

Good thing you didn't have to take a pee.....his boots would have been wet!

 

[Goldwasher]

I bet after a couple afternoon visits....he will have a cold one for you...and maybe one day you have a few extra friends and want one of those nicer first come first served campsites....that host will come in handy...
They also have the pulse of the local patrol rangers and you will hear info from them at the campfire that you wouldn't gain otherwise...There are certain battles worth fighting...sometimes certain relationships are better to strengthen rather than blow off...
I promise you I'm not criticizing...or trying to be bossy...I wouldn't judge you even for following your original plan....Your comment is the first I read this morning and made me think a little about my Vagabond van down by the river days so I thought I'd chime in have a great day

 

[fowledup]

Goldwasher- I hear ya and agree with you, funny you mention being a host, my wife and I have talked about doing that in a few years. Original plan was to work a claim full time- that will depend on how everything turns out. We had even thought about her hosting while I mine. Anywho we are up there all the time and are on very good terms with the hosts and have had many pleasant encounters. Often times times if we don't feel like tenting we bring the trailer and stay in the campgrounds. In fact I have had one or two previous positive encounters with this particular host before. Nothing personally against him, fact is he may not have meant to come across as an azz---e, it just happened to strike a nerve with me. Getting tired of being told I can't do what common sense dictates is ok and the right thing to do. The other part that bugged me was half my trash was trash I'd stopped to pick up on the road going in and out. I'm a hunter and it really pains me to say this- but if your dumb enough to road hunt (we used to save that type of hunting for the old folks and impaired- but thats another story), and drink while doing it, with a loaded rifle in the front seat; at least have the decency to put the cans in a bag or box in the back of your truck. Also pick up your sh-- at your "campsite". Gee, why do people hate hunters. Not much love for the Mtn bike and hiker crowds throwing out their gatorade and vitamin water bottles at the trail heads either. So to stop and pick up the trash than be told I can't properly dispose of mine or their trash just flat piz--d me off. I don't hold a grudge against him, and won't try to get him in trouble but I think the Forest service needs to be told repeatedly to promote the use of Forest Service campground disposal facilities- it's cheaper to pay for the increased service in the long run.

 

[Bonaro]

Speaking of trash. On my way home yesterday from the claim I stopped into the nearby Forest Service campground like I always do to dispose of my small bag of trash. As I get out of my truck the camp "host" pulls up along side and tells me I can't use "their" dumpsters. I ask why not. "Because these are "OUR" dumpsters and we pay alot of money to have the service and you didn't stay here." I purposely didn't tell him I had a mning claim a few miles away but said "No, you are correct I did not stay here in this camp however I did stay in this forest". He says "well these dumpsters are for "OUR" guests only". At that point, I knew where "OUR" conversation was heading, said F'it to myself, I was tired, wet, and getting very agitated. So I put my bag of trash back into my truck and thanked the idjit for doing his part to help keep America and "OUR" forests beautiful. Now today, I feel rested and rejuvenated so I plan on dedicating a few hours contacting the Forest Service and the vendor. I feel it necessary to make sure they understand that it is not the vendors dumpster and as a user of the forest and tax payer I have the right to dump a small bag of trash into the fricken dumpster. WTF happened to common courtesy, common sense and just plain ol being nice to people you meet. I don't look like a criminal whatever that is supposed to look like. I drive a nice vehicle, my gear is nice and clean, I don't look like a nomadic vagabond, hell 98% percent of the time I even have a smile on my face, especially when I''ve been at the claim- I don't know, I just don't get it. Maybe the guy that has the claim the OP is talking about is near me and he was told the same thing when he tried to use the dumpster!

Before the dredge ban in Kali I was dredging on the upper Klamath above the I-5 bridge. We had pack up and were headed out and stopped at that little rest area right there where the river and freeway cross. I had a bag of trash and went up to the big dumpster with it. Some snot nose kid literally stood in front of the dumpster with his arms out. I asked if I could throw it in and he said NO!. Not wanting to agitate the little pinhead I put the bag back in my truck and began to slowly drive through the rest area. I'll be danged if the little window licker didn't go into full stealth mode and follow me all through the picknick area to make sure I didnt put any trash into a can there. So I did 2 laps really slowly then parked and let the dog out for a long walk...just so I could waste all of his afternoon...lol

 

[nh.nugget]

Sounds like some of the dumb a$$ things that the flat landers do here. I went up to get my camper last Friday figured I would stop and get some dirt from my spot. Some dumb a$$ threw out 3 bags of trash right where I park! Not wanting to get blamed I tossed it in my truck took it to the campground, just happened to see the owners they asked where it came from I told them the story and they thanked me for picking it up. Here's another good one me being me. LOL! I live near a camp ground it's on the other side of the river in Maine. I live at the end of a dead end street got a 40' Christmas tree on the corner of my drive way. I was standing in my yard A flat lander with a camper, LOST! turns around stops throws 2 bags of trash into my tree! Seeing this I grab the trash run across the street seeing an open window heave ho! 2 bags in the rear window! 2 points for the home team!

 

[Hefty1]

Remember back when the forest rangers did pick up the trash bags along trials?


When I came up off my claim to where I had set 2 red trash bags for when I was leaving to take out to my truck. They were gone? As I am walking out to my truck I spotted two rangers or forest somebody carrying those two red trash bags out.
So I decided to stay behind them and let them carry them out. HeHe....well when they got out to their truck, they set the bags down on the side off the road and were having a soda or something. I sat up the hill from them and watched. As one got up to get in and fire up their truck. I am thinking what about those two bags? I grab my camera out and sure enough the other ranger grabs one bag and throws it over the side of the hill, down towards the river. I was lucky enough to get a picture of him throwing the second bag over and pics of him getting into a forest service truck and the numbers on the truck. Well I went down to the road where they threw those bags over. Got pics of the bags down the side. Well I went and got those pics developed and took them to the head ranger in Forest Hill. Hamberger was his name. Anyone remember him? Showed him the pics and he immediately put a call for those two to come to the office. They were both fired on the spot! Hamberger never told them who took the pics.

Very nice guy...no more like him any more.

 

[beekbuster]

i have used public trash bins for my fish guts and bird feathers(and other parts). they get cleaned every day, no harm no fowl. haha the trash along the road from deer season is despicable. i always joke there is enough recycling along the road to pay for my gas.

 

[Hoser John]

Thank you very much for that heart warming story Hefty as good does prevail over evil at times... John

 

[2cmorau]

thanks for that Fowled
those that have a claim in Sierra county, we pay a property tax, and i will have to find it, but was given a notice many years ago that we were being charge for waste hence the increase in property tax

Goldwasher- I hear ya and agree with you, funny you mention being a host, my wife and I have talked about doing that in a few years. Original plan was to work a claim full time- that will depend on how everything turns out. We had even thought about her hosting while I mine. Anywho we are up there all the time and are on very good terms with the hosts and have had many pleasant encounters. Often times times if we don't feel like tenting we bring the trailer and stay in the campgrounds. In fact I have had one or two previous positive encounters with this particular host before. Nothing personally against him, fact is he may not have meant to come across as an azz---e, it just happened to strike a nerve with me. Getting tired of being told I can't do what common sense dictates is ok and the right thing to do. The other part that bugged me was half my trash was trash I'd stopped to pick up on the road going in and out. I'm a hunter and it really pains me to say this- but if your dumb enough to road hunt (we used to save that type of hunting for the old folks and impaired- but thats another story), and drink while doing it, with a loaded rifle in the front seat; at least have the decency to put the cans in a bag or box in the back of your truck. Also pick up your sh-- at your "campsite". Gee, why do people hate hunters. Not much love for the Mtn bike and hiker crowds throwing out their gatorade and vitamin water bottles at the trail heads either. So to stop and pick up the trash than be told I can't properly dispose of mine or their trash just flat piz--d me off. I don't hold a grudge against him, and won't try to get him in trouble but I think the Forest service needs to be told repeatedly to promote the use of Forest Service campground disposal facilities- it's cheaper to pay for the increased service in the long run.

 

[russau]

I sort had the same problem in the medicine Bow Mntns when trying to use "their" restrooms (outhouses) the Bobby Thompson camp ground was roped off . well I always have my privy I bring with me camping but ...well you know , I had to go! and while in town (Larime , Wyoming)(on a grub run) I stoped by the local BLM office and asked whats up with the roped off camp ground. some Rangers didn't know and asked the head ranger about it and I was in hearing distance of his office and he got loud about his answer!! and then he came out of his office and I asked him about it and he said basically the same thing! its for campers only , NOT for the rest of you! they pay to camp there! I said ok but its all roped off to prevent ANYONE from camping. can I pay to use the outhouse and he got really loud and started waving his hands /arms and said NO! It would take Congress to pass a law for that to happen! Some friends wanted todo a SH**T - IN and take pictures and send them to him BUT I thought maybe we better not for the sake of all others that wanted to camp there. and im not mentioning any names