Hawk or Eagle?

[heartsongs]

Found in a TN creek. Looking for information please. As well I have some stones that have a face on them and stones that may be birds or fish. Thank you

 

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[The Grim Reaper]

To all of you that have felt the need to answer stupidly with snide comments with all of your so called "Knowledge," what is your purpose for being on this site? I thought this site was a place where a person could come for help identifying objects? So where is that help I ask? to those of you that I have mentioned above...your not all that. Not everyone has your "Knowledge" and frankly to treat others in such an insignificant way, I will just keep my own knowledge that treats others with respect. I came here to learn, I came here seeking truth, I came here looking for answers, I came here to gain knowledge...not to be kicked in the face because I don't have answers. How does one learn if they don't seek out truth? How does one learn if questions are not asked? How does one learn from a**holes? If y'all are "experts" how can you expect anyone to learn anything from you? My opinion is y'all are just UN-professional wanna be's that get off on belittling others that does not meet your standard of knowledge. How sad!!! To those of you that replied with courteous and helpful answers I thank you and appreciate your kindness and help.

And yet you gave a "like" to the ones that gave you a smart alec answer.

Your stones are natural. That is not an Eagle or Hawk Effigy and the other is definitely not a Bannerstone. Please do some research and you will see why they aren't artifacts.

 

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[NCPeaches]

heartsongs, I have found that most times if the artifact isn't without a doubt a "real" artifact, like the one in my avatar that some of these folks take a half look and loudly, rudely pronounce it a rock. I find all of my stuff in a creek on my property, I have found well over 300 pottery shards, a few obvious tools and not as many projectile points as I would like to find but I'm still hunting. So when I find stuff that's beaten up from 1,000's of years of tumbling and it definitely has the shape I won't even bother posting it on here because it don't fit the mold and some of these guys will argue with you about it till you're completely worn out...it's just not worth it. I looked at the pics you posted and wondered about them, if they were natural or crafted. The questions that come to my mind are what general area were they found and were there other artifacts there such as pottery shards and projectile points, is there art on boulders or rock walls, what tribes used to live there? I find large stones that look flaked to me but then again the creek might have done the flaking and I find cobbles that could have been used for grinding stones or pecking and they have plant fossils on them, which the fossils alone I find very cool because I see them in the pottery so I know they were there when those peoples were making things.

This evening I couldn't help but get a little miffed when I saw a post of rocks but everyone was going on about how they were nice finds and tools and such...I have a "rock" garden full of those and when I posted them all I got was they were natural. So, just saying, you may not get what you want or need in info here so maybe try asking a local archaeologist or go look in a museum to verify what you have because they can have hands on time with it and know for sure what you have there. Then post what you found out to help the next person. These guys are great here but sometimes even I get a case of the ass when they label my stuff as "natural"...but then I let it go thinking my pics might not be clear enough or something.

 

[heartsongs]

Thank you NCPeaches

Thank you NCPeaches I appreciate your very kind response. To answer your questions yes there were small points that I found as well as some crescent knives/scrapers, etc. They were found in central TN. and parts of KY. From what I know of the tribes in both area's were Chickasaw and Cherokee. The other things I have collected from around those same areas are from the unconfirmed paleo time frame. As well, I have a rock garden full of all kinds of "natural" rocks from all over the U.S. I am a rock hoarder. I inspect each and every rock, washing, studying it and then separating it...yes, even in my garden they are somewhat organized. Fossils are in a spot, rocks with visible quartz in another etc. I do admittedly, do not have the knowledge that is professed here. However like you I can tell tell what is natural to a "degree," I am by means "no expert." But I did not fall to the earth yesterday neither. I also know that it is hard to tell from a mere picture. Not one inquired of any further details, not one asked any other question about if there were markings. Rather in their tones was "you're an idiot." True enough I do not have all the answers, nor am I looking for an answer of "what my imagination" can make up. What can not be seen in the picture is the complete deep small circular grooves that are on the inside, from where the holes are end to end, top of the insides and the bottom. Surely not a "Natural" process. This is where the problem lies is that...not any one "expert" here has seen every kind of artifact that there is. There are plenty of rare things left in this world I can assure you of. Likewise when one "thinks" they know everything and "feels" the need to just belittle you is inexcusable. These people live in a "box," and are very short sighted. And like you...I have experienced this before on here more than once. There have been a "very" few exceptions here and there, but for the most part, rudeness. It's just this time it upset me. I am here trying to learn because I do find "un-explainable" things such as the objects that I posted. You have been very kind and I thank you, I appreciate your input. Thank you for sharing. I am attaching a few other "cropped" pictures here, focusing in on the holes as much as possible so you can see the circular groves that are very prominent like I stated, that make for a legitimate question (I feel). True enough not a "bannerstone," completed or incomplete, but true enough not natural either. And not because I need some "cyber expert" to tell me something stupid, however just to share with you. Because I do believe you and I have a common interest in our hunts. We find things that we "Know" are not natural and share the same dilemma of short sighted "experts." Thank you again.

 

[theviking]

Looks like a Crinoid impression, reed drilled holes are usually clean with small rings and a near perfect circle, they are also usually started on a fairly flat prepared platform. I don't see any of this in the pictures above. Try an image search for Crinoid impressions and you will see similar images. Not trying to be hateful, just factual.

 

[Jon Stewart]

NCP and heartsongs you both posted many reasons why I look more than I post. I would take any piece that I had a question on to a certified expert and ask them. I am sure some on here give good sound advise and others maybe not so much.

Before I got into flintknapping I would ask friends in the SW if what I had was a worked piece, a knife, blade, debitage or junk. If they said it was a' leave a right', I would toss it. Looking back after a few years of flint knapping, I tossed some nice pieces based on what someone else said.

 

[1320]

Thank you NCPeaches I appreciate your very kind response. To answer your questions yes there were small points that I found as well as some crescent knives/scrapers, etc. They were found in central TN. and parts of KY. From what I know of the tribes in both area's were Chickasaw and Cherokee. The other things I have collected from around those same areas are from the unconfirmed paleo time frame. As well, I have a rock garden full of all kinds of "natural" rocks from all over the U.S. I am a rock hoarder. I inspect each and every rock, washing, studying it and then separating it...yes, even in my garden they are somewhat organized. Fossils are in a spot, rocks with visible quartz in another etc. I do admittedly, do not have the knowledge that is professed here. However like you I can tell tell what is natural to a "degree," I am by means "no expert." But I did not fall to the earth yesterday neither. I also know that it is hard to tell from a mere picture. Not one inquired of any further details, not one asked any other question about if there were markings. Rather in their tones was "you're an idiot." True enough I do not have all the answers, nor am I looking for an answer of "what my imagination" can make up. What can not be seen in the picture is the complete deep small circular grooves that are on the inside, from where the holes are end to end, top of the insides and the bottom. Surely not a "Natural" process. This is where the problem lies is that...not any one "expert" here has seen every kind of artifact that there is. There are plenty of rare things left in this world I can assure you of. Likewise when one "thinks" they know everything and "feels" the need to just belittle you is inexcusable. These people live in a "box," and are very short sighted. And like you...I have experienced this before on here more than once. There have been a "very" few exceptions here and there, but for the most part, rudeness. It's just this time it upset me. I am here trying to learn because I do find "un-explainable" things such as the objects that I posted. You have been very kind and I thank you, I appreciate your input. Thank you for sharing. I am attaching a few other "cropped" pictures here, focusing in on the holes as much as possible so you can see the circular groves that are very prominent like I stated, that make for a legitimate question (I feel). True enough not a "bannerstone," completed or incomplete, but true enough not natural either. And not because I need some "cyber expert" to tell me something stupid, however just to share with you. Because I do believe you and I have a common interest in our hunts. We find things that we "Know" are not natural and share the same dilemma of short sighted "experts." Thank you again.

I downloaded these images, printed them, showed them to my 5th grader and I ask him what his opinion was. In less than 5 seconds he replied "fossil". He's been collecting rocks and digging arrowheads for several years so even at his age, he knows his way around both. There was no doubt in his nor my mind that this is a fossil.

Here's how you can eliminate the doubt. Post these images in the rocks/gems/fossil forums and title your thread something like this "Is this a Native American Artifact?" or "Is This A Banner Stone?" I think the majority of those "experts" in those forums will tell you the truth as well.

 

[Charl]

heartsongs, I spoke with you on another forum, as well as here. Something that happens very, very often on artifact forums is the arrival of newcomers who have rocks, rather then artifacts. Sometimes, not always, the news that they are just rocks is met with serious resistance. Some newcomers even insist the experienced opinions are wrong, and they are right. The rocks are artifacts. Well, I don't think you put up the type of resistance that sometimes leads to snide remarks, angry put downs, etc. But certainly the hint was there in your comments that you thought your rocks were man made, despite the opinions rendered to the contrary. So, what likely happened in the mind of some was. "Oh no, here we go again". One thing it may help for you to understand is how very often folks show up to tell us their rocks are artifacts, can we say how old they were, etc., etc. To some degree, a thick skin is a requirement on the Internet anyway. It seems to be the nature of the beast. Sorry if you felt under attack. You're not. You just have a ways to go in learning to distinguish man made from nature made.

 

[southfork]

[ Quote ] How does one learn from a**holes?

 

[heartsongs]

Thank you all for your courteous responses I appreciate them. Thank you Charl for your explanation I do appreciate it. Indeed... I do understand and agree that you have to be somewhat thick skinned on the internet no matter what forum even facebook and twitter. And I was tolerable at the beginning of the post and yes I did click "like." However as the insults kept going...well then...here we are. I was not insisting on anything. I came here because I do not have the knowledge. I am not an expert. I come here to the "experts" to the ones that have years of experience looking to them for answers. I come here often to look at pictures, to learn from others. I am not trying to insist that I have an artifact when indeed I do not. I am trying to learn and understand. I desire to see what y'all see, what clues, are there, etc. I am the same way with rocks. I want to know what I am holding onto. How did you arrive at your conclusion etc... Example....(off the subject at hand) I have a 15 lb rock full of Pseudohexagonal crystals, I came here to treasurenet looking for answers. I posted a picture and had only one response and he was very helpful in pointing out what it was that he saw. I learned from that experience. As we all know it costs money to have things seen by the professionals, and because I do not have a flow of unlimited cash and really can not afford the slightest extra cost. I came here as to know if it was worth trying to get the extra money to get a COA. I use this site as a learning tool. When I go out on a hunt I can say "hey, that looks like this or that, I seen it on the treasure forum." I am not here to cause waves or "insist on a rock be a car" kind of thing. Life is to short and has enough drama that I do not try and add any more to it. Likewise I did not re-post more pictures to cause further insult, and to insist that it is indeed an artifact. I did it as I stated to NCP because of a mutual understanding, and to answer her questions. Thank you all for your kind responses I do appreciate them. I apologize for any of the misunderstanding that was on my end of it. Again I thank you...

 

[Charl]

I agree with you, heartsongs. You really were not insisting anything. It's unfortunate that the frequency of some posters telling artifact forums "this is what I want to hear", in so many words, can sometimes lead to quick assumptions being made, that are not really justified upon a closer look. No need for you to apologize at all. All this is just further evidence for what most of us know anyway: as great as the Internet is in connecting people around the globe, it is far from the best way for communication between and among people. Glad you understand it's just one of those things that can happen in this imperfect venue(not TNet, but the Internet in general).

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Thank you NCPeaches I appreciate your very kind response. To answer your questions yes there were small points that I found as well as some crescent knives/scrapers, etc. They were found in central TN. and parts of KY. From what I know of the tribes in both area's were Chickasaw and Cherokee. The other things I have collected from around those same areas are from the unconfirmed paleo time frame. As well, I have a rock garden full of all kinds of "natural" rocks from all over the U.S. I am a rock hoarder. I inspect each and every rock, washing, studying it and then separating it...yes, even in my garden they are somewhat organized. Fossils are in a spot, rocks with visible quartz in another etc. I do admittedly, do not have the knowledge that is professed here. However like you I can tell tell what is natural to a "degree," I am by means "no expert." But I did not fall to the earth yesterday neither. I also know that it is hard to tell from a mere picture. Not one inquired of any further details, not one asked any other question about if there were markings. Rather in their tones was "you're an idiot." True enough I do not have all the answers, nor am I looking for an answer of "what my imagination" can make up. What can not be seen in the picture is the complete deep small circular grooves that are on the inside, from where the holes are end to end, top of the insides and the bottom. Surely not a "Natural" process. This is where the problem lies is that...not any one "expert" here has seen every kind of artifact that there is. There are plenty of rare things left in this world I can assure you of. Likewise when one "thinks" they know everything and "feels" the need to just belittle you is inexcusable. These people live in a "box," and are very short sighted. And like you...I have experienced this before on here more than once. There have been a "very" few exceptions here and there, but for the most part, rudeness. It's just this time it upset me. I am here trying to learn because I do find "un-explainable" things such as the objects that I posted. You have been very kind and I thank you, I appreciate your input. Thank you for sharing. I am attaching a few other "cropped" pictures here, focusing in on the holes as much as possible so you can see the circular groves that are very prominent like I stated, that make for a legitimate question (I feel). True enough not a "bannerstone," completed or incomplete, but true enough not natural either. And not because I need some "cyber expert" to tell me something stupid, however just to share with you. Because I do believe you and I have a common interest in our hunts. We find things that we "Know" are not natural and share the same dilemma of short sighted "experts." Thank you again.

First, a little background on myself. My name is Steve Valentine and I am from southern Ohio. I took The Grim Reaper moniker a few years back when someone said a killed a lot "effigies" and I liked it. I guess when it comes to telling people that what they have is a natural formation I am fairly blunt and don't pull any punches.

I have collected and studied artifacts for 50 years and seriously for the past 25 to 30 years and I have been a Moderator on Arrowheadolgy for the past 4 years. I put together a United States Collection and have something from every state except Hawaii and have studied the types, materials, a manufacturing techniques on these pieces. While I in no way consider myself an "expert", I will stack my knowledge up against most anyone.

Now with that said, what you are referring to as a Bannerstone is no different than these two natural Fossil Inclusions in the pics below that are eroding out of the stone. Bannerstones were made from materials like Slate, Quartz, Granite, Gneiss, Chlorite, and other really nice materials. They are also pecked and ground into shape before the holes are drilled and your stone shows no evidence of any of that. I applaud your enthusiasm so if you keep that up you will start to find artifacts. We are you just trying to help so you can determine the difference.

 

[fyrffytr1]

If I offended you with my reply about seeing a grumpy old man I apologize. I still see a grumpy old man but will keep my opinion to myself!

 

[heartsongs]

Thank you GrimReaper

Thank you Steve for sharing your background and your knowledge with me, I really do appreciate you taking the time to do that. As well thank you fyrfytr1. And thank you for the pictures...showing me examples really helped. See...this is exactly the kind of responses I was looking for, the ones that not only tell me what you see as a person who has knowledge but an example as well so I can understand. (I am a woman lol) Because as I have stated I am not looking to turn a rock into a car but rather I seek knowledge in this area. And honestly I have so much "crap" per say that I have collected over the years that really is just taking up space. I do on the other hand have some articles that are legitimate as in the attached pictures. I do also understand that pictures are not always the easiest way to identify things or really portray much as they do not always show the depth, or details.(especially from a cell phone). As for myself I live in Michigan not far from Toledo. I make and play native style flutes as well as Anazasi, Mojave and Didgeridoos. Any chance I get I go to any body of water and play my flutes it is where I find peace. Along the way I always looks for artifacts of any type, sticks/driftwood (for flutes), crystals, rocks of many types and beach glass. For myself finding native artifacts is my heritage. Every time I am out looking I am always saying things like "Ok grandpa Ira where did you hide the artifacts" or something along those lines. I have an Indian heritage however most of all my relatives are dead (that would know). We have searched and searched for information as my uncle had his card. What I do know is that my grandparents and great grandparents are from Nebraska, and there is a family child that died in 1886 that is buried next to or on the old Otoe reservation. The Otoe were once part of the Siouan tribes of the Great Lakes region, a group commonly known as the Winnebago. About the time that there were problems in the tribe is when my grandparents came here to Michigan. Back then they were not required to participate in the census nor were they required to say that they were native. So therefore we get that far and hit a brick wall. Which I am sure if you have collected all those years and all those places I am sure you know the history. Sorry I wasn't trying to give a history lesson to you. Soooo...with all that being said...I seek out trying to find a small piece of my heritage per say. It may not make sense to you or to others and that's ok, it's just in my blood I suppose. So sorry for the tangent. Again I appreciate you sharing your experience with me, it truly means a lot and thank you for the example and your time that you have given. God Bless

 

[heartsongs]

fyrffytr1 don't worry no offense...I have the utmost respect and appreciation for our firefighters. I use to be the coordinator for our local fire dept for their CERT team for many years. I have assisted in many fires as well as the firefighters that lost all of their homes during Hurricane Sandy. Actually listened to all of the dispatch traffic for that. And have been trained in many areas of the response field for state emergencies. I know you gotta rough job. I thank you. God bless and stay safe.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Thank you Steve for sharing your background and your knowledge with me, I really do appreciate you taking the time to do that. As well thank you fyrfytr1. And thank you for the pictures...showing me examples really helped. See...this is exactly the kind of responses I was looking for, the ones that not only tell me what you see as a person who has knowledge but an example as well so I can understand. (I am a woman lol) Because as I have stated I am not looking to turn a rock into a car but rather I seek knowledge in this area. And honestly I have so much "crap" per say that I have collected over the years that really is just taking up space. I do on the other hand have some articles that are legitimate as in the attached pictures. I do also understand that pictures are not always the easiest way to identify things or really portray much as they do not always show the depth, or details.(especially from a cell phone). As for myself I live in Michigan not far from Toledo. I make and play native style flutes as well as Anazasi, Mojave and Didgeridoos. Any chance I get I go to any body of water and play my flutes it is where I find peace. Along the way I always looks for artifacts of any type, sticks/driftwood (for flutes), crystals, rocks of many types and beach glass. For myself finding native artifacts is my heritage. Every time I am out looking I am always saying things like "Ok grandpa Ira where did you hide the artifacts" or something along those lines. I have an Indian heritage however most of all my relatives are dead (that would know). We have searched and searched for information as my uncle had his card. What I do know is that my grandparents and great grandparents are from Nebraska, and there is a family child that died in 1886 that is buried next to or on the old Otoe reservation. The Otoe were once part of the Siouan tribes of the Great Lakes region, a group commonly known as the Winnebago. About the time that there were problems in the tribe is when my grandparents came here to Michigan. Back then they were not required to participate in the census nor were they required to say that they were native. So therefore we get that far and hit a brick wall. Which I am sure if you have collected all those years and all those places I am sure you know the history. Sorry I wasn't trying to give a history lesson to you. Soooo...with all that being said...I seek out trying to find a small piece of my heritage per say. It may not make sense to you or to others and that's ok, it's just in my blood I suppose. So sorry for the tangent. Again I appreciate you sharing your experience with me, it truly means a lot and thank you for the example and your time that you have given. God Bless

You are very welcome and I understand your passion for the hobby. I too pick up a lot of non artifacts because they are cool looking or have some meaning to me and I put them in my rock garden around our Fish Pond. Finding pieces like your first stone is actually fairly common and pieces like that are found nation wide. Millions of years of erosion can do some very wild things to stone. Faces in stones are easy to see if you turn them just right. To prove a point one evening a while back I went out to my driveway and found a couple of pieces of gravel with faces on them just to show someone how easy it was and that they weren't artifacts. If the NA's wanted to make a stone look like an object they did a very good job of it.

Here are a couple of links showing some Effigies and some Bannerstones so you can study and see the difference between your pieces and these.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hop...zmYq4xwIVwnQ-Ch3dVgC0#tbm=isch&q=bannerstones

https://www.google.com/search?q=hop...ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIk5uzmYq4xwIVwnQ-Ch3dVgC0

 

[heartsongs]

response

thank you for the links...on the one link of effigies and faces I do have a cpl things that "appear" to be as those, somewhat eroded but you cant still see the faces. Indeed it is like you said you can go out find zillions of things that look like other things. I appreciate the links they certainly help a lot as reference thank you

 

[Charl]

heartsongs, Native Americans were just as good at crafting an image in stone as any other culture in human history. Some folks are better artists then other folks. I could not sculpt my way out of the proverbial paper bag, I'm no artist.
Any tribe or band of size was bound to have individuals more artistically gifted then others.

Rules of thumb. If you have to think about it(is this natural or man made? Hmm. I wonder.), or if you have to squint(I think that's a very water worn face, isn't it), or if you're simply not certain, the odds are overwhelming that it is not a man made effigy. Like your last example above. Not an effigy made by man.

Here is a man made sandstone effigy. Seeing this, one should not find oneself saying "I wonder if this is natural or man made?". Native Americans were as skilled as anyone else in any other culture in history/ prehistory. When an effigy is man made, there will be no guessing about that fact. You might not understand what is represented, but you'll know man made immediately....

 

[Hot diggity]

That frogs awesome!

 

[Charl]

That frogs awesome!

Thank you! One of my favorite local pieces. Had to have a little skill to work a tiny sandstone pebble like that. And ya know, if this were face down in a field full of rocks, boy could you miss it. At least many would likely miss this....

 

[Charl]

heartsongs, some more examples. You might say that if you even have to ask at all, it's likely not man made. First one is a human figure made of graphite. Not really artistic, but obviously man made. And how about the adze with an effigy bear head? And a plummet in the shape of a whale effigy? No guessing required...