Help!! Robert Marx, Port Royal, 8 Reale, COA!! Real(e) or fake?

[SeawardBound]

Ok, so I'm new here, (and very excited to join the community,) and was hoping for someone with experience on this subject this to share their opinion. I just won a really, really awesome piece of eight supposedly recovered from Port Royal by Robert Marx, and I have a few concerns. Before buying it I spent a day researching Robert Marx and Port Royal artifacts and COAS, and everything pointed to this being the real deal. They rarely come up for auction so I'm thrilled. The seller told me it was a gift given to him for helping out Mr. Marx, who also gave him stuff from other wrecks and was a super great guy to get to know. If this pans out as authentic it will be the coolest thing I could imagine owning, if it's fake I could return it or just accept my loss, but need to know the truth in either case. It was just shipped today, but I couldn't wait to ask you guys.

1) I'm confident in the signature/handwriting being authentic, but is there any reason at all to doubt Mr. Marx on this being recovered from Port Royal?

2) Should the COA have a picture of the coin in question? The photo I found of him with a coin and coa clearly shows the same format for the coa of the coin I'm getting (with the ship in the bottom lefthand corner,) but I'm confused as I've seen many different formats.

3) Is the coin authentic/does the level of patina make sense?

4) How would this coin be allowed legally in a private collection/were there a lot uncovered by him??

5) Just me being extra paranoid/cautious, but is there any chance someone swapped out a different coin of the same year to keep the actual reale for themself?


Any insight would be GREATLY appreciated!!
-Dan

 

[aquanut]

You might want to post this in the Spanish Cobs forum.

 

[ARC]

Looks good to me.

Got a weight for it ?

 

[Mackaydon]

IMO, the coin, COA, and Bob's signature look authentic--though Bob's pic may have been 'air brushed' (just kidding).
Don.......

 

[gollum]

Why don't you contact Bob Marx directly and ask him. I would think he would be able to answer your questions about it.

Mike

 

[SeawardBound]

I'd love to but haven't found any contact info yet. Would you happen have an email address??

 

[SeawardBound]

Thanks thanks for the feedback! I'll have a weight for in in a couple days!

 

[PhipsFolly]

SeawardBound...

Both the coin and Bob's signature on the certificate of authenticity appear to be correct...

I have seen this style of COA from him before... however I must say that a photo on the cert is always preferable and in my own opinion of great importance if the COA is to properly attest to an artifact or coins provenance and authenticity... Otherwise any coin could be "attached" to the certificate!

The problem with your coin is that it could also be from the Consolacion wreck which sank off of Ecuador near Santa Clara Island in 1681...

Bob did work that wreck as well as previously having worked Port Royal in the 1960's and the mint and date of your coin is appropriate from either site... Most of the coins recovered from Port Royal were in surprising good condition compared to the coins from the Consolacion which tended to be more heavily corroded and sea worn.

Just my two cents worth... Recommend you talk to Bob Marx himself... He lives in Melbourne Beach area (FL) and you can probably look him up in the directory.

 

[SeawardBound]

SeawardBound...



Bob did work that wreck as well as previously having worked Port Royal in the 1960's and the mint and date of your coin is appropriate from either site... Most of the coins recovered from Port Royal were in surprising good condition compared to the coins from the Consolacion which tended to be more heavily corroded and sea worn.

Yeah, it's a shame there was no photo to accompany the COA, but the extra bit about the date written by Marx's own hand was the best case alternative. The coin being from the Consolacion was my biggest concern as I saw similar coins from the wreck, one even matching the year. So it comes down to taking Marx's word. Would you say there's any reason to doubt him? It seems nobody has disputed his Port Royal artifacts before. Would you say the coin looks too corroded to be from Port Royal?

Good stuff, thank you!

 

[PhipsFolly]

I have coinage from both the 1681 Consolacion wreck and from Port Royal in my private collection...

I could give you my direct opinion about which site I believe your coin originates from, but who am I to say... if Bob states it's specifically from Port Royal, then I would have to say that he would know better than anyone since he certified it as such.

 

[SeawardBound]

I take that to mean it appears to be from the Consolacion? I've been having a hard time finding proven examples from Port Royal to compare it with. Any at all actually. Oh well. Perhaps a more concrete example will come my way in the future!

 

[VOC]

For the younger ones who don't know the Port Royal story.

 

[seekerGH]

SeawardBound, from the conversation, the coin and COA do not match?

Your original post shows a COA obscured by a coin which says "from the.........Port Royal, Jamaica.."

with the spacing and text font, this could easily say "from the sunken city of Port Royal"

Perhaps, since you have won the bid, you can provide an image of the entire COA?

Port Royal Collection | National Museum Jamaica

From the Port Royal Museum website,



http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/1678-POR...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557




http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/authentic-treasures-artifacts-sunken-841039733

 

[SeawardBound]

Sure! Hope this helps clarify it

 

[ARC]

Personally... COA's with these mean nothing when I first see one of these...
Till after...
I have a weight... A purity test... And very close magnified inspection.

IF all 3 "are right as rain"... Then I look at the paperwork.

Until then I set it aside and do not even bother reading it.

 

[SeawardBound]

True, COAs are scraps of paper only as good as the word of whoever signed them. Once I could confirm it was signed by Bob Marx (with a note to tie it to the COA in lieu of a photo) and looked through his track record it was enough for me to pull the trigger. I posted it in a group on Facebook as well, and one guy who knows Mr. Marx personally and own a few authentic Port Royal reales had this to say:

"You cant go on the condition of a cob to determine what underwater site it may have came from. You can use it to judge if it came from an underwater site verses a land site, but that's about it.

I have dealt with Atocha cobs that were nothing but a "roundish" piece of silver, to ones in a Grade 4, 3, 2, 1 and what look like they have never seen a drop of water on them. It all depends on what they were under, ie.. sand, mud, wood, anaerobic mud (no O2), other sacrificial metals in the immediate area and if it was part of a large clump. Some clumps could be over 1000 cobs. If the cob came from near the center of the clump, it will have hardly, if any, corroded. If it was nearer the surface of the clump, it will have more corrosion.

Looking at your cob, I would venture to say that it was a single cob, buried in mud and then covered over by something that protected it from the action of the ocean. Mine came from under a brick wall, buried in mud. As for if it is from Port Royal or not, given the date, assayer and mint, condition and cert., I would like to congratulate you on owning a great piece of history, that very few have the chance to own."

 

[PhipsFolly]

SeawardBound... The person who commented above is absolutely correct in their comments and advice. The condition of the coin most certainly does depend upon land or seawater recovery and whether the coin was exposed or "protected" by other objects or coins. My comment about the coins that were recovered from Port Royal being in overall better condition than those from the Consolacion wreck appears to be on average correct as I have seen and owned numerous of both over the years and if my memory serves me correctly, I believe I recall reading in one of Bobs books about his Port Royal excavations, that even he was stating the coins from Port Royal were in surprisingly excellent condition. HOWEVER, that does not mean that your coin and COA are not valid! My advice, enjoy your coin as it certainly appears to be authentic and period correct.

 

[gollum]

SEAWARD,

I won't give out phone numbers online, but you can reach him through the following email:

atochajewelry@gmail.com

The person you will likely get is Kenny. Explain to him what you need, and he will forward your request to Dr. Marx.

Best of Luck - Mike

 

[SeawardBound]

I really appreciate all the great opinions and discussion and pointers! I see treasurenet is going to be a great resource! Hopefully I'll gain some experience and have more to contribute down the road. Thank you all

 

[ropesfish]

From Bob's website -Seven Seas Search and Salvage:
Contact Us | Seven Seas Search & Salvage
Like any artifact, whether coinage, a pottery shard or gold jewelry the real value is in the story that comes attached to it.
Nice coin either way.