Help with 2 Old Copper Coins Please :)

[SCMDing]

OK, I have had a box with some coins sitting around here for some time. Well, I decided to look through them again because I remembered 2 old coppers in pretty bad shape. I have been trying to figure out what they are but I figured I would also throw them out to all of you. (because you are most likely smarter than I am!!!)

So here is the first coin. The only thing that I can think it may be is a counterfeit British Copper. I tried to get the best pictures I could, but it looks like it says "Britain Rules" with a date of 177(?) 7 or 5. If it is 7, them I am pretty sure it is a counterfeit coin, because I do not think they were made in 1777. I have no idea what it says on the other side!!!!!

If the scans do not show up, just refresh the page. Where I am hosting them is a little flaky!!!

Small - Side 1

Large - Side 1

Small - Side 2

Large - Side 2

Coin 2, I have NO CLUE!!! On one side, where it looks like the part of a tied scarf of something, it looks like there is a small star then the letters " L I B ". That is all that I can really make out of it other than some of the shapes. It also looks like it is hammered or something because on one of the edges you can see where the two flat pieces of copper are separating. Here are the pics.

Small - Side 1

Large - Side 1

Small - Side 2

Large - Side 2

Any help is appreciated, thanks for looking!!

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Looks like mine. George III Half Penney 1770-1775?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,137825.0.html

What is the diameter in MM?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

George III halfpennies were produced in three distinct phases:

1770–1775 (all years). Weight 9.2–10.8 grams, diameter 29–30 millimetres. Obverse shows a right-facing bust of the king, with the inscription GEORGIVS III REX, reverse shows a left-facing seated Britannia holding a spray and spear, with the inscription BRITANNIA and the date in the exergue beneath Britannia. (The king's bust has a fuller face in 1774 and 1775).
1799. Weight 12.0–13.1 grams, diameter 30–31 millimetres. Obverse shows a right-facing bust of the king, with the inscription GEORGIVS III DEI GRATIA REX, reverse shows a redesigned left-facing seated Britannia holding a spray and spear, with the inscription BRITANNIA 1799.
1806–1807. Weight 9.2–9.8 grams, diameter 29 millimetres. Obverse shows a right-facing bust of the king, with the inscription GEORGIVS III D G REX date, reverse shows a slightly different left-facing seated Britannia holding a spray and spear, with the inscription BRITANNIA.

Counterfeit coinage
In the reign of King George III (1760–1820) the first issue of halfpennies did not come until 10 years after the king's accession, in 1770. Counterfeiting was rampant, and in 1771 the utterance of counterfeit copper coin became a felony; this however had little effect and for the next twenty years or so the majority of copper so-called coins in circulation were forgeries. In March 1782 a woman counterfeiter was hanged, then fixed to a stake and burned before the debtor's door at Newgate prison in London. In a letter to Lord Hawkesbury of 14 April 1789, Matthew Boulton commented "In the course of my journeys, I observe that I receive upon an average two-thirds counterfeit halfpence for change at toll-gates, etc., and I believe the evil is daily increasing, as the spurious money is carried into circulation by the lowest class of manufacturers, who pay with it the principal part of the wages of the poor people they employ". Wikipedia.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Looks like mine. George III Half Penney 1770-1775?
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,137825.0.html

What is the diameter in MM?

Yes I agree that #1 is a George III halfpenny. Still working on #2...

 

[BuckleBoy]

Second *I think* is a Connecticut copper--perhaps Miller 7-E?

1788.



I rotated your photo so that you can see the arm and pole in the proper orientation on the reverse:




Regards,


Buckles

 

[Montana Jim]

Nicely done fellas...

 

[SCMDing]

Sheesh!!! You guys are something! I went to go watch a show with my son and I come back and it was like simple math to you all!!!

I think that you may have only needed a commercial!!!

Thank you so much.

 

[Don in SJ]

The King George is not a typical counterfeit if it does in fact say Britain Rules.

(Ref:NotreDame site)
Evasion Issues
Along with counterfeits there were several "evasion issues" produced in England and Ireland. These issues did not try to make exact copies of coppers (usually halfpence), instead they only tried to closely resemble regular issues. Usually the images would be the same but the motto "Georgius III Rex" would be changed to "George Rules", "Georgius III Pax", "Britain Rules" or the like. Sometimes the portrait of the king would face in the wrong direction. Since these coins were not exact copies of regal issues, the makers could not be charged with counterfeiting under English law.

Nice piece!

Don

 

[SCMDing]

I know that they are both in pretty bad shape, but, can I send it somewhere to get it positively identified? And if one is a counterfeit, would they identify that?? You are correct, it is a CT Copper and the other is a George III, I would just really like to know the exact variations.

Again thanks, I will mark this as solved in a little bit.

 

[BuckleBoy]

I know that they are both in pretty bad shape, but, can I send it somewhere to get it positively identified? And if one is a counterfeit, would they identify that?? You are correct, it is a CT Copper and the other is a George III, I would just really like to know the exact variations.

Again thanks, I will mark this as solved in a little bit.

If my ID of the variety is correct, then they are Both contemporary late 1700's counterfeits. CT is easier in the ID of exact type than a KG is. Other than that, our ID here will be just as accurate as sending them off...and cheaper.

Regards,


Buckles

 

[PBK]

All of the following are known legends on imitation regal halfpence and farthings of the 18th century:

BRITANNIA RULES
BRITAIN RULES
BRITAN [sic] RULES
BRITAN NIA RULES THE WAVES