Here it is!

[hlzblz]

just a word here folks,swift had several in ky.but that is not the treasure.it is 3 kegs buried nearby,2 gold,1,silver, with counterfeit plates.

 

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[swiftsearcher]

I have been to (several times as a matter of fact, as it is near the main furnace rockhouse) the tree with a large limb near the bottom where Swift buried 4 kegs of crowns. As with Beale, I have no idea what you are referring to, as none of the 30+ Swift Journals I have read mention anything you stated.

The only place Gold is mentioned in any of the Swift Journals is in the "Indian Cave" or "Great Cave". One of Henson's Jounals refers to it as "The Great Shawnee Cave", but this is the only journal that does so, and I believe was added in to make the journal more "interesting".

As for the Moulds you are referring to (I believe you called them counterfeit plates), those are in the rich mine and yet to be excavated.

 

[SwiftHistoryman]

Re: Here it is! ------ on locations ....

Location quote for Henson's published journal

"Thence to the Great Kanawha, thence to the Guyandotte, thence to one of the Forks of Great Sandy Creek, near its headwaters.

We had two workings, the company was divided into two parties, one group went due west for a considerable distance. The other went southwest along the great ridge, each party to work the locations selected the previous year. My party had four places where we obtained silver ore that were later connected by trials or Tomohawk paths."

If the forks are at louisa, of course be if, then going due west for a consideration distance put you near lower devils creek and the red river gorge. Where the SMJ rock is. Which I have seen numerous times.
the "Upper Mines" Then going up sandy to the great ridge pine mountain and going SW west put you near numerous places like the pigeon water cave where silver was found by B.G. I know him and have one of the Coins. Cavers5 knows him also.

Comments.....

B.G. is speaking at the Big Sandy Historical Society in louisa Kentucky on November 8, 2008 at 1:00 pm St. Joesph Church along with an attorney who has been searching for a long time and is good friends with R. Volker.

 

[swiftsearcher]

Wow, I would love to go and listen to the lecture and hear BG talk about Pigeon Water Cave. However, I am back to my "opinion" that the coins at Pigeon Water are from Sol Mullins, as I have been researching Sol and everything points to Sol producing Spanish Silver.

Again, below is a pic of a FRENCH CROWN that was made by Swift (with the date hidden, except for the 1 and 7). Supposedly, all of Swift's FRENCH CROWNS were dated with the same date. Thus, I have hidden the date to compare to any other Crowns that belong to Swift. Since most of the caches have been found, I would assume it would be hard to find many however, as those were probably melted down years ago.

PS, last time out, I still was not able to go in the entrance I believe is to the Great Cave Swift mentioned, as there were still several black widows in and around the opening. I did manage to go on the other side of the ridge and find THREE more openings from the backside hidden in a laurel thicket (that I believe the Shawnee used to escape their women, children and elders from the Cherokee during battles). With the recent drop in temperature, I will probably get back out next week, after my several doctors appointments that are interupting my search!

 

[SwiftHistoryman]

coins water cave

 

[swiftsearcher]

SwiftHistoryman, thanks for posting the scan. That is the first time I have seen an actual coin from that find! What that is, is a copy of Spanish Milled Pillar Coin. This could definitely have been a coin that Sol Mullins would have counterfeited, given his timeline below (plus, the general area of the cave would fit the general area of Sol Mullins' "operation"). Also, this type coin was still in use in Sol's time for trade in the area.

+ 38 M iii. Solomon 'Counterfeiting Sol' Mullins was born on 23 Feb 1782 in Broad River, Burke Co, NC, died on 28 Aug 1858 in Champanville, Boone Co, VA and was buried in Trace Fork, Big Harts Creek, Boone Co, VA

Thanks again for posting the scan! Also, as a side note, the date is not the date Swift used on his Crowns (which I explained to Ralph the reason for the date Swift used today and will detail in my book). I am now 99.9% certain the Water Cave, as you call it, consisted of Sol Mullins' stash!

 

[DD-777]

"it seemed as if Henson wanted the mines to be in a certain area and then tried to make everything fit his area"

It seems that your doing the same thing. This post has certainly been a great read, and while I am no expert on the Swift mines, your kinda' making it seem like nobody can possibly know as much about this as you. I'm sure you have definitely put in the hours (make that years) of research and fieldwork to come to the conclusions that YOU believe to be correct, but who's to really say you are? You insist that Beale is wrong about where/when Swift died - how do you know for sure? You also claim that past Swift researchers (published) are essentially wrong in their findings. Again, how do you know for certain? Stories (written and otherwise) change constantly over time. Directions get more confusing, landmarks/"signs" deteriorate and most importantly - landscape changes. Sometimes so much that places rarely resemble what they once were. By the way, who owns the land that you are searching? Have you ever brought a detector with you?

"I also have found physical evidence, including a Silversmith's "chasing hammer" "

"BTW - there has been Silver found in the area I am in as well, not simply Silver in a creek, but Silver
Crowns/bars/ore and kettles, furnaces, etc.!"

Post a few pictures of your "finds" - they won't give away the location.

I don't want you to think I'm "bashing" your post - quite the contrary, I think it's great. I'd be lying though if I said I was not a bit of a "doubting Thomas". I don't think that posting a few pics would deter the sale of your book. In fact, it would most certainly capture the interest of more folks - not just Swift fans.

Again, please don't take this as offensive. It's not meant to be that way. Definitely looking forward to updates and hopefully some photos. Good luck on your great endeavor...

 

[swiftsearcher]

DD-777. Thanks for your posting. I was out yesterday in the field and had another good day (they are all great out in the woods btw).

First, I have never claimed to be an expert. I have claimed to find three of the four PRINCIPAL SWIFT MINES (Including the Rich Mine). Also, I have found all of the landmarks (they were located in the exact locations Swift gives them in his journals) and the TWO furnace rockhouses. In fact, one still has the large stone with a smaller (but large) stone beneath it with molds the silver was poured in (in the shape of pigs). BTW - I have perm. to detect in certain areas (I asked for this in the beginning and received it). No, I don't take a detector out every time either - especially in certain areas that I don't have perm. - however, I do have perm. in the 3-mile radius of the Swift Principal Mines.

One thing you mentioned that I DISAGREE with adamantly is that I had a perceived location in mind (as I stated Henson and others did) when I started. Well, you are right - Henson and others wrote about Swift and gave their "conceived" locations of the mines. This is fair game after something has been published (to be scrutinized) and should rightly be questioned (even my findings might be questioned after I publish my book - though, I doubt it, b/c I will have more than my "thoughts" - I will have evidence supporting my claims and TONS of it!). When I started out, I went by the Swift Journals (I had two old copies I went by). I followed the directions given in the journals, as I had no idea at the time where I thought the mines were located. So, this part of your argument is incorrect - I NEVER had any preconceived notion as to where the mines were located.

BTW - I have heard of the stories of "found Silver" relating to Swift in the area you refer to. I also have several of those stories in my area (again, the ONLY person on here that knows where I am hunting is Ralph Hurst, so, Beale cannot conclude that I am in any given place, as I have never told him the location). The ONLY difference is I have physical proof. I have not even seen a pic. of any of the Swift's Silver supposedly found any place else! I am in the process of obtaining a Swift French Crown from a person related to a finder in my area and will show it in my book! Also, I have names of the finders of items in my area - including the names of people who found Silver, Coins, the actual molds, etc.! This, and I have found some items myself - some not mentioned here evidently.

Tell you what. You mentioned me showing some landmarks. I will! Let me know what you want to see (only one) and I will post the pic! The ONLY landmark rock I have not found is the teakettle rock (I know where it is. However, it is extremely rough to get to the area - too rough to get a pic. of one landmark) and the only mine I have not found is the middle mine (haven't looked for it yet, as it is a good distance (about a mile) from one of the furnace rockhouses (and there were no caches buried here to look for). I will get pics of it before my book is published however. Also, the ONE landmark/mine entrance I will NOT post is the chestnut bur rock and the entrance to the rich mine (I did post the inside of this mine, or bear den however). That will be saved for my book (in fact, I have not even shown it to Ralph yet, as I don't want to ruin his one surprise!). Again, lmk what ONE pic you want to see and I will post it this weekend!

Also, I have spoken with several "Swift Searchers" in my day. You are WRONG when you state posting pics will not give away the location. Some of these searchers (especially the old-timers) have seen it all and simply passed by it or did not recognize it when it was seen. However, you mention one rock and the general area where it is located and they can give you the exact location. Plus, they can take one pic and tell you where you took it a lot of times. If I was finished with my search and waiting for the book to be published, I would be more than happy to post more pics and might even give some locations as well. However, I still have the middle mine to find/photograph and the Indian Cave to find.

BTW - I am not interested in selling books either (though, it would be nice I guess, but I would have to sell six figures simply to cover my expenses in searching). I simply want to show everyone what they have overlooked and show where the mines are located and hope that the govt. will do something to preserve the mine sites and their history for the next generations to see. Plus, I am tired of geologists acting like we are all idiots when we mention silver or gold mines in the Appalachians!

 

[DD-777]

Swiftsearcher - Thanks for the reply. I think you mistook me when I quoted you at the beginning of my comment - I don't think you had a preconceived notion of where you wanted it to be. I know that while searching for things, sometimes we may come up with all sorts of "proof" that what we are searching SHOULD be right there in said area. We look around (said area) and find even more - we start to believe that what we seek HAS to be in that area - often it is not.
As far as the photos go - you taking a picture of a silversmith's hammer on the ground where you found it (not a panoramic shot - just the hammer and the ground) will not give away said location of such find. I don't care to see the pics of the "landmarks" and "signs", don't really care to see the caves either (unless of course they're filled with silver and the pic won't give away the location). Posting photos of the pieces that YOU have found is what I'd love to see. Not a French crown - I could go online and see one. Let's see the silversmith's hammer that you claimed to have found.
Do me a favor too - when you disagree with something, make sure you have read and understand exactly what was said before you CAPITALIZE the word WRONG to me. I have conversations with children all day, I don't need to do it here.

"Post a few pictures of your "finds" - they won't give away the location." - When I typed this, I should have been a bit clearer. When I say "finds", I mean actual items, not landmarks and caves.

Something else I'd like to add...

"I simply want to show everyone what they have overlooked and show where the mines are located and hope that the govt. will do something to preserve the mine sites and their history for the next generations to see. "

Going to the government (local or otherwise) would be the last thing I'd do.

A) More tax dollars wasted on something that it shouldn't be. You know before (if it were to happen) they erect any kind of monument or "state park", They will spend God knows how long and how much $$ ruining the surrounding lands.

B) While Johnathan Swift and his mines may be of historical significance to us "treasure hunters" and the curious-minded alike, he's not exactly Daniel Boone.

C) I don't think there would be too many residents in the area wanting the government encroaching into their space any more than what they have already.

 

[swiftsearcher]

No problem. I have posted it before, in another thread, but here is the silversmith chasing hammer again. It is from the mid 1700's and has a metal handle (from my research, the hammers were made with wooden handles beginning in the the 1800's). However, since you seem to be skeptical, I have posted the pic again.

I realize what you meant now - trying to get things to "fit" while researching. When you mentioned what I stated about other authors, I meant they had a preconceived notion and their writings seemed to make their site(s) fit. I have to disagree with you on your opinion as well, as I only found the Rich Mine April 25, 2008. Even though I had been in the right gap, I had been in the wrong area (if I had been going by a preconceived notion, I would still be in the wrong area!). I simply went by Swift's directions and found the first mine (the one they mined only one year - 1760), then started following directions to the other sites. I might have had a preconceived idea on where things were during my search. However, it was only after I found some other sites and proof as well (then, I knew I was on the right track). The difference between me having a "conceived notion" about the mines then was that I had proof (actual physical proof as well as the landmarks, mines, etc. being in the right locations). Another thing I meant by other authors wanting their spots to be right is, as with Henson using pictures of arches from an area to refer to them possibly being the needle's eye rock. The real needle's eye rock is just that - a large rock sticking up from a clift in the shape of a needle with a hole or "eye" in the middle of the top, NOT an arch. Plus it was West of the mines, in the area Swift mentioned. Also, other authors will state there is are landmarks here and there to prove their areas. However, when one looks these up on a topo map, they are in the wrong locations given by Swift (instead of being West of where their rich mine is, it is North of there, etc.). Or, as in the case of Henson, the creek he points out as being the one in the Swift map even flows in the WRONG direction. Swift stated the creek flows NE and the one Henson claims to be a match in one of his books flows almost opposite of NE!

I do disagree with you about Swift and History. It is very historical that Swift was in the area mining before Boone!

 

[swiftsearcher]

Beale, again, you post as if you know where I am hunting (you stated I followed Filson's land grant instead of a journal). I have never told anyone but Ralph Hurst. I can say one thing - Ralph agrees with me 100% after I have shown him some of the sites and talked to him at length about my finds and we have discussed things. The reader of my book will also know and be convinced 100%, as I will tell them as well.

About the only thing I have stated regarding location in my posts is that Henson was wrong. Heck, Prather even states in his book that the Swift mines are at Ft. Knox and one author states that they are in The Grand Canyon - both of these are wrong as well. Take these three locations from the US map and you have a hint of where I am - which could be almost anywhere!

Tell you what Beale. You state you have found Swift's mines and are certain of it. Fine. I am certain as well. In fact, I am so certain that Ralph, my fiance' and I are going to excavate the rich mine and obtain some ore in the next couple of months or so (depends on when Ralph can get down here to help). In the meantime, you obtain ore from your mines. Then, we can see who is correct. Truth is, we may both obtain ore from our mine sites, as there are actually several old Silver Mines in KY. The richest ore should be from Swift's rich mine however. Also, if we both find ore and it is nearly identical in richness, to prove which mine site is Swift's all we have to do is post pics of the chestnut bur rock above the mine and the haystack rock located in the next "drain", as well as the rock that has fallen from another rock at the rich mine. Also, the mine has to be on the second ledge, have an entrance the size of a hogshead barrel and be a bear's den (which is not as big as an actual cave). I already have all these pics from my Rich Mine site ready to post if needed!

 

[DD-777]

Swifty - Boone wasn't a silver miner. My statement was not referring as to who was in the area first - quite frankly, the Native Americans were. Technically, it was their land. Regardless, the point I was trying to make, is that while Swift does hold some historical significance to folks like us, I don't think the government would see him the same way as compared to Boone. I live very close to Boone's Cave park - the state barely cared about that place. It went to shambles so much so, the county decided to buy it. Fortunately, it's now cared for and a ranger is now housed on the grounds.

In other words - don't be so pumped to get your name in lights. The government makes quick work out of folks like that. IF you found what you believe you have, be happy with it and write about it. I do applaud you on the effort you are putting forth.

Understand though, you will most certainly be subject to criticism. Heck, many of us here are subject to it when we make a "unbelievable" find (even if it's just a coin). Take it with a grain of salt my friend. Beale is apparently just as passionate about this subject as you are. It doesn't mean you will both see eye to eye though. Agree to disagree. Open minds will certainly find more good in life than closed ones... 8)

 

[swiftsearcher]

DD - One town in KY thinks highly enough of Swift. They believe the mines are located there and have a historical marker up, etc. etc. The actual history of Swift is interesting (at least to me and a few others). BTW - my IQ is higher than 5 - I do know the Native Americans were here before Boone and Swift.

I can handle doubters. I will even offer to wager Beale any amount of money (up to $100k) that I am correct.

BTW - the reason I stated Beale was incorrect about Swift's death is that he was born in 1712 (as stated in several journals). Again, without going back and looking into the specifics of the posts, I believe Beale's date of John Swift's death would have put him well over 100 years old (if I am remembering the posts correctly without searching through them).

One last thing. I don't want my name up in lights (If I did, I wouldn't go by Swiftsearcher, I would be using my real name). I just want the truth to be known. As for the sites being "protected", I would like that as well. Though, I do realize the govt. doesn't do a good job at this to say the least. However, if there is a treasure involved, they do everything they can to steal it and destroy the site!

I guess the main reason for me wanting the public to know the locations is that it would dispell a lot of the nontruths. It seems every different book that is written about Swift, the author states the mines are in a different area (the same for a lot of other treasures as well). I have a chance to prove 100% without a doubt the real sites and believe I should. If not for simply exposing the truth, to save people time and money hunting at another author's location.

Also - Who says Boone wasn't a Silver Miner! Evidently you haven't researched Swift and Boone that much, or your wouldn't have stated this.

Beale - I think you mention something about me not wanting to find the teakettle rock. Also, the middle mine will be the last mine I will find. The main reasons, the terrain is very rough and I started out looking for the furnaces and cache sites after finding the first mine. The West Mine was very close (50 poles) from one of the furnace rockhouses, so I found it next. Then, I had to find the Rich Mine of course. I will find the Middle Mine before publishing my book however. As for the teakettle rock, there is no reason to go that far out of the way to photograph one rock that has no caches buried near it. I think my time will be better served looking for the Middle Mine and Indian Cave (which is more than enough to fill my plate!).

 

[NGE]

That hammer is interesting, I stand corrected. For years I was told that those hammers were called " Ball Pein " hammers. I have a sledge hammer(?) that the head weighs 25 lbs. but because when doing autobody repairs for 44 years, (I kept breaking the wooden handle) I welded a cut in half axle shaft (2 1/2 foot long) to the head, and have never broken a handle since. the whole thing weighs 35lbs.......Not doubting anyone here, but am I wrong to call that hammer a Ball Pein?...........NGE

 

[swiftsearcher]

Did a quick Google search. Here you guys go. You can see that modern day silversmith chasing hammers have wooden handles and have heads similar to this one. However, before 1800, the handles were metal (like the one I found in the pic).

These chasing hammers are similar to a "ball peen" hammer. You cannot tell from the close up pic I took, but the head is really small. The overall length is 12 inches exactly btw.


http://www.shopwiki.com/search/Chasing+Hammer

 

[swiftsearcher]

I hate to break it to you, but the handle is original to the hammer. How are you arriving at the conclusion that the hammer had a wooden handle and had it replaced - especially from the photo? I have it in my hand and have owned hammers, axes, etc. that have had handles replaced. This hammer's handle is the original as there is no sign of it being replaced (anything holding the handle to the hammer that was placed in the head, etc.).

As for the date of the hammer, chasing hammers had metal handles before the 1800's. Also, my great aunt has several old tools that were her grandfather's (from the mid to late 1800's) and this is definitely older than any of these (and I have compare the hammer to them side by side).

I don't see how you are arriving at your conclusion - especially based on a pic, as you would have to look at the hammer in detail to conclude it had a handle replaced. Also, if you will look at the pics carefully of the chasing hammers in the link, they have the same type head this one does (just a little more updated).

I found the hammer on a ledge between the furnace rockhouse and the waterfall. IF it was a ball peen hammer, why such a skinny handle? Also, why would anyone replace a wooden handle with a metal one? It would be harder to get a metal handle to stay attached to the hammer's head. Also, if it was a ball peen hammer with the handle replaced, why such a skinny handle? It would be much easier to use a ball peen hammer with a thick wooden handle IMHO.

I will admit there is not much difference in the looks between a chasing hammer and a ball peen hammer. They probably could be used for the same purpose in Silversmithing - especially when only needing it to make crude pigs or bars.

 

[swiftsearcher]

It seems my last stament above (comparing the similarities of a ball peen hammer and chasing hammer) is true. They are both used in working metals!

http://www.answers.com/topic/ball-peen-hammer

 

[NGE]

I also just looked at the link with the Jeweler's chasing ball pein hammer in it. With the exception of it having a wooden handle, the heads are entirely different, especially on the end that has the "flat Face" notice that the sides leading to the flat surface are straight (same diameter ) while in your picture of the one you found the flat face is " skirted " looks modern to me. If the one in "your " picture is in fact an old "chasing" hammer, how many would you like to buy? Mine are in better shape too, albeit I would have to take the cracked handles off and replace with metal rods, so they would be safer to implement............NGE

 

[Kentucky Kache]

Swiftsearcher, I was wondering how deep you checked the areas (depressions)where the caches had already been recovered.

 

[swiftsearcher]

NGE, for the hundreth (and last time), if yours have wooden handles, they are definitely not as old as the hammer I found! The metal handle is original also. From my research, these hammers used for chasing in metal melting didn't have wooden handles until the 1800's (whether you call them a ball peen hammer or a chasing hammer).

BTW, silversmith chasing hammers came in different varieties. Some have a flat head, some look like a ball peen hammer and here is a rather odd looking example.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Jewelers-Silver...ptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


CC, I went over them with my detector (some of them more than once) and never received any hits. My detector is suppose to find large caches up to 6 ft. I have found pennies at around 18 inches with it and a mine respirator at around 2 1/2 ft., so it should find a large cache at 5-6 ft. Supposedly, the caches were around 3 ft. deep. If so, there is definitely nothing there. Also, for a couple of the sites, I know the people's names who found them (so I know they are gone).