Highbanking in California, some questions

[Asmbandits]

I was discussing with a lawyer friend of mine on how highbanking was not illegal in California as some would believe and the ways that I knew it was acceptable to run a highbanker here such as reciculating water from a settling pond away from a river lake or stream.

I thought there was also an acceptable method if you were able to do the same as described above but on a seasonal drainage. I recall something along the lines of that if the waterway does not flow for a certain amount of time during the year and is dry most of the time it would be acceptable as well?

My friend insists this would fall under a river, lake or stream, my argument would be what classifies as such? I know of a drainage ditch that only flows during very wet rainy periods that does not support aquatic life due to this and I do not consider it to be a river lake or stream because of this, but I do not know what it would be technically considered..

This particular location there is some standing water here and there after rains that can be recirculated and confined to a small settling pond within the non flowing ditch. This seems like a perfect scenario for highbanking but my friend seems to think otherwise..

Anyone have and guiding input on this topic?

When I look up the definition of river and stream, both have the word flowing or continues flow. But this not the case in this ravine as there is now flow.

 

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[Tahoegold]

I was discussing with a lawyer friend of mine on how highbanking was not illegal in California as some would believe and the ways that I knew it was acceptable to run a highbanker here such as reciculating water from a settling pond away from a river lake or stream.

I thought there was also an acceptable method if you were able to do the same as described above but on a seasonal drainage. I recall something along the lines of that if the waterway does not flow for a certain amount of time during the year and is dry most of the time it would be acceptable as well?

My friend insists this would fall under a river, lake or stream, my argument would be what classifies as such? I know of a drainage ditch that only flows during very wet rainy periods that does not support aquatic life due to this and I do not consider it to be a river lake or stream because of this, but I do not know what it would be technically considered..

This particular location there is some standing water here and there after rains that can be recirculated and confined to a small settling pond within the non flowing ditch. This seems like a perfect scenario for highbanking but my friend seems to think otherwise..

Anyone have and guiding input on this topic?

When I look up the definition of river and stream, both have the word flowing or continues flow. But this not the case in this ravine as there is now flow.

I would go with the attorneys input. Law is a practice, not a science. However the local enforcement wants to interpret the law is how it will be enforced. Looking at the wording, it can be argued that, either the ditch is a waterway, or it is open ground. It has to fall into these two catagories.
It says, you can't discharge into a stream or "body of water" without a permit, and you can't discharge onto land without a permit. Furthermore, there are no permits available for this type of discharge.
It isn't that it is impossible, it just looks like if they want to make it impossible they have the legal tools. I would not even trust that if you went right to the authorities that could make the decision, that someone in the field with authority will contradict that. And if the situation gets pressed into court, a smart procecuter could present a case to beat you. Unless the situation is cut and dry, you are in jeopardy. And, it doesn't look cut and dry to me. This looks to be written with the intent of covering themselves from someone accusing them of banning this activity as it supposedly gives avenues to do this activity. Yet, the guidelines are so narrow that you couldn't just go out and do it without written permission from the state.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjABegQIDRAG&usg=AOvVaw1iczwLhb2N_QBtcfgSloUP

Here's a quote:
"Currently there is no general permit available for discharges of water and waste
sediment from highbankers or power sluices to streams, rivers, lakes, or other
surface water bodies."

Yet it adds:
"2. You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. To apply for a permit, you must file a Report of Waste Discharge with the Regional Water Board. You cannot begin mining until the Regional Water Board approves your Report of Waste Discharge and notifies you that either your permit has been issued or that a permit is not required because the discharge will not create or threaten to create a condition of pollution or nuisance. The minimum fee for the permit is $1120.00
but may be higher depending on the threat the discharge poses to water quality and the complexity of the discharge as determined by the Regional Water Board.
See below for legal details."

Also, this statement covers all the bases if you want to just build a setteling pond as that would be man made:

"4. If you plan to divert water for use on non-riparian land, or to divert water that would not be there under natural conditions for use on riparian land, you must apply for and receive a permit to appropriate water from the State Water Resources Control Board."

Here's a copy from the CA water board...

Question: Can I use a highbanker or power sluice to recover gold?
Answer: Yes, under the following conditions:
1. The Fish and Game Code, the Clean Water Act, and the California Water Code
prohibit you from discharging water and waste sediment from your highbanker or
power sluice to an area such that it may enter a stream, river, lake, or other
surface water body without a permit from the Regional Water Quality Control
Board (Regional Water Board) responsible for the area where you’ll be mining.
Currently there is no general permit available for discharges of water and waste
sediment from highbankers or power sluices to streams, rivers, lakes, or other
surface water bodies.
2. You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power
sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board
responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. To apply for a permit, you must
file a Report of Waste Discharge with the Regional Water Board. You cannot
begin mining until the Regional Water Board approves your Report of Waste
Discharge and notifies you that either your permit has been issued or that a
permit is not required because the discharge will not create or threaten to create
a condition of pollution or nuisance. The minimum fee for the permit is $1120.00
but may be higher depending on the threat the discharge poses to water quality
and the complexity of the discharge as determined by the Regional Water Board.
See below for legal details.
3. If you are diverting water from a riparian parcel for use on that parcel, you must
have a riparian water right or be legally entitled to use riparian water rights for the
parcel and you must file a Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement)
with the State Water Resources Control Board’s (State Water Board) Division of
Water Rights for each point of diversion. The fee for filing a Statement of
Diversion and Use is $50.00. For general information about riparian water rights,
and whether you have one, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml. For information
about Statements of Diversion and Use, and how to file one, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml.
4. If you plan to divert water for use on non-riparian land, or to divert water that
would not be there under natural conditions for use on riparian land, you must
apply for and receive a permit to appropriate water from the State Water
Resources Control Board. For information about applying for water rights, go to:
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml

 

[Tahoegold]

I have a few places I would like to run a sluice instead of a drywasher myself. I was thinking of using some containers to carry water in my truck, fill a tub and run a recirc sluice. And, take the water back in the containers. It's the only solution I can figure that gets around these rules.

 

[Clay Diggins]

You will probably want to look up the meaning of "Waste Discharge" before interpreting the law to mean something that it clearly doesn't mean - once you understand the terms used.

Heavy Pans

 

[Tahoegold]

You will probably want to look up the meaning of "Waste Discharge" before interpreting the law to mean something that it clearly doesn't mean - once you understand the terms used.

Heavy Pans

I think it was this that caught my attention...

1. The Fish and Game Code, the Clean Water Act, and the California Water Code
prohibit you from discharging water and waste sediment from your highbanker or
power sluice...

Also,
2. You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board...

 

[Bodfish Mike]

I have a similar situation and was thinking of going old school with a recirculating rocker box .

 

[Asmbandits]

My plan was to highbank an area on private property far away from any river lake or stream. I have a whole dug where I plan to work, It is now full of water from the rain and I was going to recirculate the water in that man made settling pond. It is the exact same concept as if I were to do it with tubs or holding tanks, only its in the ground that is being worked anyways and its on my property yet I would need to apply for a permit to do such? Pathetic... I thought this was America!

 

[Tahoegold]

My plan was to highbank an area on private property far away from any river lake or stream. I have a whole dug where I plan to work, It is now full of water from the rain and I was going to recirculate the water in that man made settling pond. It is the exact same concept as if I were to do it with tubs or holding tanks, only its in the ground that is being worked anyways and its on my property yet I would need to apply for a permit to do such? Pathetic... I thought this was America!

You can't even apply for a permit. It says they don't have one available...

Maybe put a plastic tarp down and capture the tailings in a bucket. Put the tailings in a pile and call it Ore. The sediment "Pond" would be instead a tub. Leave it until it evaporates. Drop a couple of rocks on the tarp so it doesnt blow away. As long as you dont fit the profile in the rules....

 

[Asmbandits]

I will do the right thing going forward.. The fact they have no permit to me says a lot and seems like it creates some legality issues. How can you enforce regulations only partially put into effect?

 

[Tahoegold]

Right, I read that the mining rights organization was trying to argue that point about the dredge ban. Seems they had the same wording. However, since they didn't say it was banned, then, it's not banned. Instead they said they don't have the staff to create the permits. So, there's only the areas they own that they can regulate. Your tub of water doesn't belong to them. The gold "ore" you just "cleaned" for processing isn't sediment.
Maybe as a joke, If they show up with a badge and a side arm, call the sherriff and tell them you are being approched by an armed terrorist.... Someone will have to decide what to do at that point. Maybe they both leave you alone!

 

[Asmbandits]

What you describe is exactly correct! In person in the field how would it all go down? I can say from experience that most likely if you are doing things correctly you will not have issues or be told to stop with a warning I'd imagine.

However I am trying to do a highbanking video and stay withing what is legal. I'm not going to pull a permit to shovel a yard or so of material for a video or two in a closed loop environment away from any river lake or stream on private land.. I am trying my best to do this within the laws and regulations and common sense. I feel that I will be well within whats legit and especially as far as common sense goes.

Its extremely non impact what I will be doing and fall withing all regulations you posted, only I will not be obtaining a permit that does not exist.

 

[Goldwasher]

 

[Tahoegold]

Oh, if you say the permit does not exist, they may say it does. They just don't have anyone that is employed to issue one.
I would say, that a custom fit dirt support for your plastic tub separates the "Water" from the "Waters". Also, I would argue, that, just like any wash basin, you would be able to use any water you deem necessary. You could let it evaporate and then the silt would be "dirt ore". There's always gold losses. You would have ore still yet to process. All these mentioned are private property. They can't regulate them.

 

[Asmbandits]

Oh, if you say the permit does not exist, they may say it does. They just don't have anyone that is employed to issue one.
I would say, that a custom fit dirt support for your plastic tub separates the "Water" from the "Waters". Also, I would argue, that, just like any wash basin, you would be able to use any water you deem necessary. You could let it evaporate and then the silt would be "dirt ore". There's always gold losses. You would have ore still yet to process. All these mentioned are private property. They can't regulate them.

The thing is were talking moving dirt with water mere feet and that is all. No need for anything you described in reality, only to appease the crazy laws that make no sense. Possibly on a large scale but not what I will be doing by hand. As Clay mentioned what constitutes waste water as the actual reality is your just moving dirt a few feet with water, basically introducing nothing new to anything so there is no waste. You would have to be introducing something foreign to be waste water, but in a closed loop moving material a few feet there is no introduction the two already exist in combination in its natural environment. Sifting existing dirt and water to remove minerals is basically all you are doing in reality..

In all fairness, what I describe is way less impactful than running a stream sluice in a river or stream...

 

[Tahoegold]

I would normally agree with you 100%. I would point out, the regulations do not give a measured amount to the regulations. Theoretically, any amount is included. Again, is it something that is intrepreted as you say,... by the authorities in your area? The way the law is written, seems to me, gives them harassment power.

 

[mikep691]

My plan was to highbank an area on private property far away from any river lake or stream. I have a whole dug where I plan to work, It is now full of water from the rain and I was going to recirculate the water in that man made settling pond. It is the exact same concept as if I were to do it with tubs or holding tanks, only its in the ground that is being worked anyways and its on my property yet I would need to apply for a permit to do such? Pathetic... I thought this was America!

Hmmm. Private property. If the owner of the private property also has the mineral rights to that property, with no rivers, lakes, or streams in the vicinity for any run off to enter, then do it.

 

[Asmbandits]

My thoughts exactly

 

[Tahoegold]

I would... I'm just speaking technically. The regs say, drawing from "any body of water" and transfering to "ground". It's written so as to cover so much. Very poorly written from our standpoint. Incredible powers of regulation from theirs. Since they probably want to have the most controll in case they need it. If you have a puddle and open ground, I would personally not be concerned a bit. However, at first you were asking a question. It lead to the regulations. Would washing one's car be illegal? According to what's written, it would be. However, it all depends on the harassing authority. On private property, how would the get there? Posted on the internet, how would they prove where it was? Nevada? Calif? Just do it and don't reveal the location. Ever, lol...

 

[Asmbandits]

I would normally agree with you 100%. I would point out, the regulations do not give a measured amount to the regulations. Theoretically, any amount is included. Again, is it something that is intrepreted as you say,... by the authorities in your area? The way the law is written, seems to me, gives them harassment power.

It should. Just because something is a law does not make it "right" unfortunately these days sadly, its more like "right for who?"..

There should be less interpretations of law, I believe the problems with these regulations are the broadness and that there is too much interpretation needed to enforce properly.

Common sense is not so common these days..

 

[Tahoegold]

Zactly,... It seems they want total controll of this. The common sense part is then left to the officers in the field. Give him/her/it a box of See's candy next time you see them!