Historian Says New Smyrna Is States Oldest City

[aquanut]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Did anybody pay attention to what Fisheye had to say? You should...
Aquanut

 

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[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

C Z,


There where alot of Confederate blockade runners, came ashore up and down that area.
That " spill over " was a one of the small inlets : maybe that's what your seeing, when the sand really
goes out!! and cut's form, from the Inlet to south of the state park. there's 3 runners still in the surfline.

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

I suppose there are many more buried wrecks than we know. I wonder IF there has ever been a 'sand movement study' that scientifically shows a time line how quickly a wreck is covered and what forces impact it through time? I suspect once a wreck is covered with sand it stays pretty much covered like natural humps on the sea floor. Kind of like an underwater dune fence.

I read today that there are 65 known shipwrecks just on the bar outside St. Augustine Inlet.

The LAMP people are magging the Salt Run area.

cha-ching! lol

 

[Diver_Down]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

I suppose there are many more buried wrecks than we know. I wonder IF there has ever been a 'sand movement study' that scientifically shows a time line how quickly a wreck is covered and what forces impact it through time? I suspect once a wreck is covered with sand it stays pretty much covered like natural humps on the sea floor. Kind of like an underwater dune fence.

I read today that there are 65 known shipwrecks just on the bar outside St. Augustine Inlet.

The LAMP people are magging the Salt Run area.

cha-ching! lol

The Salt Run area was the historical navigable inlet before the state park was created.

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

I suppose there are many more buried wrecks than we know. I wonder IF there has ever been a 'sand movement study' that scientifically shows a time line how quickly a wreck is covered and what forces impact it through time? I suspect once a wreck is covered with sand it stays pretty much covered like natural humps on the sea floor. Kind of like an underwater dune fence.

I read today that there are 65 known shipwrecks just on the bar outside St. Augustine Inlet.

The LAMP people are magging the Salt Run area.
cha-ching! lol

The Salt Run area was the historical navigable inlet before the state park was created.

shhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[vulcan007]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Interesting topic, but the google maps shown here are obsolete. The area is different now after storms from 2008 changed the landscape of the beach. Some of the areas depicted here were wiped out by water and are now a pile of soft sand affected by high tides. As sappar has stated, a big storm is needed to remove the sand that has been piling up for the last year and a half.

I believe fisheye that most of the valuables were removed 30 years ago. These area has been dredged and worked on since the 1950s.

Personally, I am waiting for a storm to hit the Treasure coast.

V

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Here's a better shot at the old Spanish map showing el penon.

 

[vulcan007]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

The current matanzas inlet is south of where the original inlet was. The beach ramp is where the shoreline was in 1700s.

 

[vulcan007]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

The Salt Run area was the historical navigable inlet before the state park was created.

There are several shipwrecks buried on Anastasia Island state park dunes, but you can't metal detect there. The north half of the island wasn't there 100 years ago. The whole area is filled with wrecks and other debris.

V

 

[Cappy Z.]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

The current matanzas inlet is south of where the original inlet was. The beach ramp is where the shoreline was in 1700s.

It is possible than that the run-over just south of Summerhaven where I placed the red x is the el Penon inlet.

Time to get a screen, a shovel, and dig for clams.....

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Cappy Z,


Freebee.. Here's an idea what the Area look like back in 1550's
like I said before and V007:

Where the Beach ramp is today across from the Fort was the Original " Matanzas Inlet " .

where the Maintenance Blds are : , Sand Bar' s, Oyster Beds, little Marsh Island.

Present day Inlet was: was small inlet but had Broken Reefs " which you see today" !!!

Rattle Snake Island: Only half what it is today:

where the south end of the Bridge to Gen Johnson Road was all Sand Dunes and small pine trees:

Spill Over next to last house: was another small Inlet " only at HighTides"

El Penon Inlet: it came across A1A at where the Hot dog stand is.

 

[Diver_Down]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

The current matanzas inlet is south of where the original inlet was. The beach ramp is where the shoreline was in 1700s.

It is possible than that the run-over just south of Summerhaven where I placed the red x is the el Penon inlet.

Time to get a screen, a shovel, and dig for clams.....

I was driving down that way, today. There must have been an above average high tide recently as more sand has washed in to the marsh. One can park on the side of A1A and walk across without getting wet. With the breach, sand has been moving in and burying anything that would be in range. I would suggest the task to be for a 2-box detector. Also, where the breach is, you will find plenty of cement fill with re-bar. A sloppy repair of a past breach.

 

[itmaiden]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Are you sure about your location for El Penon Vulcan ?

El Penon = The Rock, or a Pinnacle. The Spanish names a number of places El Penon in which there was a lone tall standing rock, usually on top of a mountain.

Now considering that, and the old maps and the relation to the small stream to the lake on the west of this area, this is possibly El Penon:

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=29.695336&lon=-81.222894&z=19.1&r=0&src=msa

You will not see it on this map, but if you go to Summer Haven on Mapquest and do a zoom and head south you will find a part of a south fork of Matanza River as it meets the smaller stream coming up and on the east of their meeting a sandy area that appeared to be an old inlet.
Further substantiating that this could be the old El Penon is a very high sand mound on the south side of this sand which I have placed the cross hair at to get the above coordinates.

You can see the Pinnacle of sand really well on mapquest.

itmaiden

Nah...the true coquina quarry you are talking about is located south by washington oaks state park. This was the location of el penon just north. V

 

[Diver_Down]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Are you sure about your location for El Penon Vulcan ?

El Penon = The Rock, or a Pinnacle. The Spanish names a number of places El Penon in which there was a lone tall standing rock, usually on top of a mountain.

Now considering that, and the old maps and the relation to the small stream to the lake on the west of this area, this is possibly El Penon:

http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=29.695336&lon=-81.222894&z=19.1&r=0&src=msa

You will not see it on this map, but if you go to Summer Haven on Mapquest and do a zoom and head south you will find a part of a south fork of Matanza River as it meets the smaller stream coming up and on the east of their meeting a sandy area that appeared to be an old inlet.
Further substantiating that this could be the old El Penon is a very high sand mound on the south side of this sand which I have placed the cross hair at to get the above coordinates.

You can see the Pinnacle of sand really well on mapquest.

itmaiden

Nah...the true coquina quarry you are talking about is located south by washington oaks state park. This was the location of el penon just north. V

Itmaiden - your link provided shows what we are all calling the "breach". The sand next to the last house has been moved into the channel. The house also had dock. Their boat has been suspended for the past two years as the sand has encased all the homes docks in the area.

 

[vulcan007]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

[quote ]
Are you sure about your location for El Penon Vulcan ?

El Penon = The Rock, or a Pinnacle. The Spanish names a number of places El Penon in which there was a lone tall standing rock, usually on top of a mountain.

...

You can see the Pinnacle of sand really well on mapquest.

itmaiden
[/quote]

Itmaiden

The area on your picture is not there anymore! It was washed away in 2008-2009 by the high tide surge and storms.

El penon was a landmark from the time of Menendez to the 1700s. It no longer exists today. If it wasn't destroyed in 1800s by people, it was most definitely erased during the dredging by the army corps of engineers. The area you see today is man made with the effects of countless storms!

El penon was located just north of Washington Oaks Gardens SP. I cannot say more!

V

 

[Sapper23]

Re: Historian Says New Smyrna Is State's Oldest City

Vulcan007,


I agree with you!!! all the answers' are there. it's all about research!!

 

[occy]

Metal detectorist finds rare treasures under sands | StAugustine.com Mobile

My dad says he has seen an old boat mast and hull become exposed a few times south of Matanzas Inlet and just south of the breach. His friend dug up a huge anchor. When they were kids they used to play in the fort.

 

[Southern_Digger]

Wow! Love this older thread and never seen it before. It was in the neighborhood of my research in the early 70's to locate the massacre site at Mantanzas; before I was side-tracked into long-term archeology volunteerism in South Florida. First, I attempted to acquire a small rooftop skiff and with that search the coastal areas with my metal detector below Mantanzas Inlet--long before it was developed as it is today. Then, I wanted to search the dunes by hiking the beach north from Cape Canaveral opposite Titusville, but was told otherwise by the Rangers, Also, I attempted to locate an old Spanish-English-American stopover on the old Bellamy Road (Spanish trail to Picolata). Located the site of settlement in 1975 with the aid of an early map and surveys, but could not/did not work hard enough (due to time constraints and finances) to get permission to search the then-wild and overgrown Palmetto forest. I was actually interested in signing a paper and buying the land back when it was going for only $500 per acre and less. Never got permission, but searched much later (early 2000's), finding an old cabin footprint and a few Seminole War Relics--it was the site of Ft. Searles too. Friends in No. Fla. got their first, once land went private and was sold. They found some good Seminole War related relics and Butch Mayes (R-I-P) dug a few Confederate items from the site. I purchased a Ga.-style Confederate Block I button from him that he dug there along with a few bullets he dug out of Picolata. When I gave up on the Bellamy Rd site in the mid-70's --mostly due to lack of time... I attempted to find the site of Ft. Mosa and did easily get permission to search some land--I was close, but I was landside, not realizing it was on an island. Also, at New Smyrna I was given permission to search old Fort Park--it was rather overgrown then, somewhat like the Ft. Pierce site. Word got out somehow because next thing I know, I was contacted by some town commissioner at Micanopy to assist them in locating the footprints of Ft. Micanopy--had to turn that one down--too far. Likewise, A new job in south Florida curtailed my efforts to get back to New Smyrna. My goal then was to find early colonial history and evidence of Spanish Florida. It would be a different story if I moved to St. Augustine after college in '74. While stuck in South Florida, I refreshed my interest in underwater archeology and plain shipwreck salvage. I shut down all No. Florida plans when I became more serious to pursue a little-known Spanish Wreck at Jupiter Inlet (1977); and was back on land again after being denied permission to dive at the Inlet. Then Bessie DuBois and Anna Minear; of DuBois Hist. Society and Loxahatchee Historical Society, respectively asked me to represent them as their volunteer archeologist; to use my skills in helping them find the whereabouts of the Loxahatchee Battlefield and the site of Old Ft. Jupiter. Also, to inspect and search some of the many shell middens on private property near DuBois Park. At least, this request was only 50 miles from home so I volunteered to help them. In my research, I discovered a colonial camp--a sizeable English surveyors camp--was established on the north side of the Inlet during the 1790's. For all the property's they had me inspect and gave me carte-blanche to search; neither could get me permission to search the lighthouse property because it was still under State of Florida jurisdiction at that time. Moreover, I found early research that the first settler at Jupiter, a recluse who lived there in 1840, found a chest of coins either at the site of the lighthouse or in DuBois Park. Both areas, in 1840, was located on the north side of the natural inlet. By 1980, I had located the battlefield and four 1838 military camps-making a sizeable artifact donation in 1980. This project kept me out of North Florida for another 10 years and out of the water. I did search Jupiter Beach after Hurricane David passed by in 1979, expected to find treasure coins, but did not. However, I did find numerous fishing weights, a 10kt gold ring; and evidence of a buried 1800's shipwreck under the beach in the area of the natural Inlet. Oh well... can't be everywhere at once and I certainly could not clone myself, so sacrifices had to be made. I hope others can continue this thread regarding North Florida shipwrecks and sites because it is better by far than anything on TV.

 

[occy]

Wind and waves are coming. Maybe we will get a shot at uncovering some cool stuff soon.