History Channel - Oak Island mini series January 5, 2014

[flyadive]

Has anyone looked at Sable island which is a stones throw away? The Dennis was lost there in 1578 carrying all sorts of goodies and was never recovered. Or the Tillbury to the north in 1757. There are dozens of known gold bearing ships down in the area with no interest in them? My atlas of Shipwrecks shows countless wrecks all up and down the coast, in fact there appears to be more wealth lost in the water than there is currently on land.

Burbank, could you provide a link to the atlas of shipwrecks?

 

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[Mikey667]

As an aside, I know I have posted links to other sites that debunk the whole Oak Island treasure mystery. BUT, I do get ideas from them from time to time. Many are good as in a historical idea, because as they have posted their investigation, little clues can come up. The naysayers are good to watch because in their investigations, sometimes MORE involved than believers to debunk believer ideals, they offer clues of what to watch, where to go in the future, and of course avenues that were not previously checked into. The genus of the Oak trees that were on the island could be very integral to finding where they came from. While I am not a treasure hunter per-se, I am more interested in the history. That's my treasure.

 

[Mikey667]

Burbank, could you provide a link to the atlas of shipwrecks?

I would like to know as well... sounds interesting...

 

[Mikey667]

Thanks Mikey!
Now that could help in the investigation!

Hi again Flyadive...

I did check into it a little bit, but the Scotland v/s England thing doesn't mix... that doesn't mean it's NOT a clue, but as to your inquiry, it should be looked into. Maybe Henry Sinclair, depending on the date the island was named, Henry Sinclair wanted to throw a pie in the Duke Of Gloucesters face by using the island as a repository for treasure under his nose. Then again, that is a bit of a far fetched idea on my part. And, in the political turmoil at the time, it could prove a lead.

 

[Mikey667]

Thank you for that photo Mikey667. I think the beach in the photo is Smith's Cove, which is the spot the coconut fibres were found. Oak trees just shouldn't grow like that. This is not an environment for them. Heck, I have a gorgeous Nova Scotian red oak tree in my front yard that puts these guys to shame! Wrong environment for them plain and simple; hence the questions. I had read that acorns don't float. Hopefully someone can tell me otherwise....

I get the geological information on the island. I get the notion of underground caverns and fully support the notion that they are natural formations. What I don't get is Smith's Cove, and the oaks just plain bother me.


If you're interested in stuff Nova Scotian, google "mystery walls Bayers Lake" and "Vikings Cape Breton" - I have a funny feeling this is the direction finderskeeper may be going in, though I most certainly could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time!

Hello Rowanns...

Very good ideas there. As to what Finder is sniffing out, I don't know, and maybe he will post his ideas... then again, don't hope he will, hunters like to keep their secrecy as you know.

"Mystery walls Bayers Lake" looks promising, I don't know the size of it though. "Vikings Cape Breton" is a bit less substantial being that as looking them up only showed me a small part of what could be a significant find. Maybe you could post your fav links as to what we are looking for. Certainly both sites are there, and have a definite and interesting concept, but lacking info cannot render a good conclusion. Even Wiki is barren on these sites.

Have any more info?

Oh, I'm sending you a friend request!

 

[Mikey667]

It did help. You do realize that the MNHS link was actually a rather scathing critique of this theory, right?

Also, it does not pass the common sense test. Let's try a little thought experiment. For the purpose of this experiment, we will assume that the stone is completely authentic. Put yourself in the role of the stone's creator and answer the following questions:

1. Why am I making this stone? (I can think of a couple of reasons here, as I'm sure you can too.)
2. How should I make this stone?
3. What information should be provided on it?
4. Who am I hoping will eventually see this?

There are a few logical answers for the first question and depending on how you answered it, there will be logical questions for the other three. The problem that I'm having is answering all of these questions in a logical manner and ending up with the KSR, particularly with a cipher involved. We're only human, and humans do some very illogical things, but the moment that we start using this as our first step in solving a mystery we set ourselves up for incorrect conclusions. For all of the stupid things that people sometimes do, there's always a reason behind it - a silly, foolish, or even insane reason sometimes, but there is always a reason.

I've run this thought experiment a few times and I've come up with only three scenarios that make some kind of sense to me, but others may come up with more. I'll post them later, as I don't want to influence your own thought processes one way or the other.

Dave, post your thoughts!!!

 

[HenryWaltonJonesJr]

If King Magnus really did write the below translated letter in 1354 I'm sure there would have been monks with them to preserve the faith. The dates match up as well.

"King Magnus' letter of command given to Paul Knutsson at Anarm to sail to Greenland. Magnus, by the Grace of God, King of Norway, Sweden, and Skåne, sends to all men who see or hear this letter good health and happiness in God. We desire to make known to you that you are to take all the men who shall go in the knorr whether thy be named or not named, from my bodyguard or other men's attendants or of other men whom you may induce to go with you, and that Paul Knutsson, who is to be commandant on the knorr, shall have full authority to name the men whom he thinks are best, both as officers and men. We ask that you accept this our command with a right good will for the cause, as we do it for the honor of God and for the sake of our soul and our predecessors, who have introduced Christianity in Greenland and maintained it to this day, and we will not let it perish in our days. Let it be known that whoever breaks this our command shall feel our displeasure and pay us in full for the offense. Executed in Bergen on the Monday after the Feast Day of Simon and Jude in the 36th year of our rule. Herr Orm Eysteinsson, our Lord High Constable, set the seal."

 

[HenryWaltonJonesJr]

So perhaps there were crusaders with them as well and after not finding those in Greenland just kept going. Burying some treasure on oak island and forging ahead all the way to Minnesota and beyond. It's makes a great story.

All I know is if I lived in Minnesota I'd keep an eye out for rune engravings just in case. If authenticated it'd be worth millions.

 

[Gold Maven]

Burbank, could you provide a link to the atlas of shipwrecks?

Here's a great book about treasure recovery in that area. Highly recommended, great story.

 

[HenryWaltonJonesJr]

It's actually taken from under the section Vikings I The Midwest from here:
http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/Kensington.shtml

The Viking Lady has put together some good info, interesting even though she starts out with "debunking the Kensington Stone"

 

[Mikey667]

It's actually taken from under the section Vikings I The Midwest from here:
Viking Answer Lady Webpage - Debunking the Kensington Stone

The Viking Lady has put together some good info, interesting even though she starts out with "debunking the Kensington Stone"

Hi again Henry... excellent post...

I had to delete my last post because I inferred that monks traveled with exploration parties as per your posting. Please accept my apologies. While still holding my beliefs, your post does posit the point that exploration parties did have religious people along to keep faith in the face of danger.

Thanks again for a great post and link to the insight to this matter. Very good sleuthing!

 

[HenryWaltonJonesJr]

Well I'm not sure how you can preserve Christian/catholic faith without a monk or a priest. They were the leaders of the faith.

Perhaps some research on the crusading parties to the Middle East would give an idea how many would typically go along.

 

[Mikey667]

Well I'm not sure how you can preserve Christian/catholic faith without a monk or a priest. They were the leaders of the faith.

Perhaps some research on the crusading parties to the Middle East would give an idea how many would typically go along.

I agree Henry. I will look into it a bit and see what I can find. Seems to me, as per your original post that, as these parties were very religious, they WOULD have somebody along to help keep the faith and also maybe record the journey. According to the Kensington Runestone, as deciphered, many people died a horrible death. During this time, the bubonic plague was ripping thru Europe at an astonishing pace. I don't believe indians killed these people, I think the plague was carried aboard their ship(s) and wiped most of them out. Carrying the death with them. Sinclair sent out a search party to find them, and may have carried treasure with his party. I'm reaching, I know, but it is plausible.

Again, great post!

 

[burlbark]

Burbank, could you provide a link to the atlas of shipwrecks?

Its a hardcover book. I have an extensive library of treasure related books and lost towns and communities. I could probably dig up some more.

Is it okay to take a picture of the inside of the book of a page or 2 and post them in the thread? I have seen some mods frown upon this in the past.

Heres the book.

http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Atlas_of_Shipwrecks_Treasure.html?id=NGiBQgAACAAJ

 

[burlbark]

This gives an idea how many ships have gone down in the area.

Sable Island: Known shipwrecks since 1583

 

[Dave Rishar]

Hey Dave... yeah, maybe it would be good to move the Kensington Runestone ideas to a different thread. Although the KRS is not mentioned on the show, which this thread pertains to, I do believe that the KRS could very well have something to do with the Knights Templar theroy. I know you do question it's authenticty, I am not here to change your mind. As you say, the jury is still out.

I question the authenticity of the KSR, but I understand that it may very well be legit. There's more to be learned about it. However, attempting to tie Oak Island to the Templars, and the KSR to the Templars, and thereby the KSR to Oak Island requires some fairly large leaps of logic.

The year on it, 1362, does jive with many different things involved with Oak Island. It is my belief that a scouting party was sent out by Henry Sinclair about that time. To get to Kensington, Minnesota, the party would have had to pass thru the Oak Island area. The carbon dating of the coconut fibers (maybe off by 400 years) was still dated to the same time frame as well. This does not mean that the scouting party buried Knights Templar treasure there at that time, but coincidences don't happen often in history. The "Hooked X" offers a direct tie to Henry Sinclair, the Knights Templar, and Rosslyn Chapel in Scotland. The "Hooked X" also ties in with Christopher Columbus, who, thru marriage, had ties with the Templar and FreeMasons. Remember that the "Hooked X" wasn't really deciphered until about 1935, many years after Olaf discovered the KRS. In essence, Olaf could not have known about it if he indeed scribed it himself. Plus, he probably did not know about the double dating technique as in the easter table.

There are some problems with this. To wit:

- In 1362, Sinclair was a mere baron and had been for only 4 years. He was in his late teens. I will not state definitively that he lacked the resources, the motivation, and the knowledge to launch an expedition to the New World, but I'd say that it's a reasonable estimate of the situation. He would not be a person of import for another 15 years or so, as the king was not yet making Scottish earls.
- Construction on Rosslyn Chapel didn't even begin until 40 or 50 years after Sinclair had died; it had nothing at all to do with him. Likewise, this was around 150 years after the Templars had been dissolved. Sinclair himself was born decades after the Templars had disbanded. The Sinclairs contemporary to the Templars were not their friends. I do not see the connection here at all.
- Columbus also hooked his Y's. While hooks on carved letters might mean something (such as "In Christ," which the demonstrably non-Templar examples are generally interpreted to mean), hooks on written letters probably don't. Hooked letters are not uncommon in handwriting. It happens when you remove the quill (or pen) from the paper to make another stroke and set it down just a bit early, while still moving to the starting point for the next stroke. Also note that hooked X's have been found in places were the Templars almost certainly weren't active. It's not so rare as some writers would have us believe. An X in particular would be an easy one to hook on the second stroke...as would a Y, which is written in nearly the same way.

As both you and I are not experts in this field, we both can only watch and wait until definitive proof is found. I don't have time to become and expert, I am just a lowly guy who paints trailers, turning tanks into Mona Lisa's... hahaha... BUT, if you believe it warrants a new thread topic, I will happy to frequent it and post accordingly. As it sits, there is no proof that the KRS is authentic, with which I agree with you. If It is, it is a start toward many unsolved questions. It is a starting point which could be the biggest find since the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Indeed. I worry that regardless of the value that our discussion may or may not have, we're hurting the signal-to-noise ratio in this particular thread. But yes, I'm certainly no expert myself. I'll be the first one to admit that.

And the cistercian monk situation... many explorers of that day, being very religious, took along a monk of their religious practice to help keep a party brave in the face of danger.

That is not proof. The inscription mentioned the numbers and the nationalities, but nothing else. There certainly may have been a monk present, but we don't know that. We can only speculate, and speculation often gets people in trouble. It should never play a foundational role in a theory.

Thank you for being interested. It does take an open mind. Many situations in history were poo-pooed until proven correct. This one deserves an open mind as well. I could be wrong. You could be wrong. Hell, we BOTH could be wrong. Investigating a little bit doesn't hurt. I'll freely admit if I am wrong, but it does not negate the fact that you and I both, with others, did come up with some ideas.

Situations should be poo-pooed in history, or any science, until proven otherwise. Skepticism is a forge for theories - good theories come out better, and bad theories come out broken. Skepticism keeps us honest in our pursuit of truth.

 

[Dave Rishar]

If King Magnus really did write the below translated letter in 1354 I'm sure there would have been monks with them to preserve the faith. The dates match up as well.

"King Magnus' letter of command given to Paul Knutsson at Anarm to sail to Greenland. Magnus, by the Grace of God, King of Norway, Sweden, and Skåne, sends to all men who see or hear this letter good health and happiness in God. We desire to make known to you that you are to take all the men who shall go in the knorr whether thy be named or not named, from my bodyguard or other men's attendants or of other men whom you may induce to go with you, and that Paul Knutsson, who is to be commandant on the knorr, shall have full authority to name the men whom he thinks are best, both as officers and men. We ask that you accept this our command with a right good will for the cause, as we do it for the honor of God and for the sake of our soul and our predecessors, who have introduced Christianity in Greenland and maintained it to this day, and we will not let it perish in our days. Let it be known that whoever breaks this our command shall feel our displeasure and pay us in full for the offense. Executed in Bergen on the Monday after the Feast Day of Simon and Jude in the 36th year of our rule. Herr Orm Eysteinsson, our Lord High Constable, set the seal."

I think that he did write it, but I'm not sure that it ever happened. There are no records of this expedition departing or what it found.

One of my favorite "Bushisms" (and a surprisingly clever remark, whether intentionally or not) is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The lack of records does not mean that it didn't happen (particularly when taken in context with the king's letter), but it means that we have no evidence that it happened. The problem is that we have to accept that Knutsson went to Greenland, found something that convinced him to keep going, and then kept on going for a long damned time - but he had no reason to do so. We're left basing a theory on another theory that can't be proven, and that's a recipe for all sorts of silliness.

If we assume that the expedition actually took place, the mission was to preserve Christianity in the Western Settlement; the Western Settlement had probably been abandoned for several years before the order was given to go there, however. The Eastern Settlement would have been alive and fairly well though, so anyone going to Greenland would have found settlers to talk to. (Indeed, the last recorded piece of information leaving Greenland was in 1408, so there were presumably settlers around half a century after Knutsson went there.)

The big question is, IF Knutsson actually went and IF he decided to keep going, what would have convinced him to do so? This is not so simple as someone saying, "Eh, why not?" He had orders. He was on a mission. The goal was to preserve Christianity in Greenland and, presumably, to return to Norway afterward and report on what had happened. Why would he disregard these orders?

That's where the Knutsson theory starts to break down.

 

[rowanns]

Has anyone looked at Sable island which is a stones throw away? The Dennis was lost there in 1578 carrying all sorts of goodies and was never recovered.

Or the Tillbury to the north in 1757.

There are dozens of known gold bearing ships down in the area with no interest in them?


My atlas of Shipwrecks shows countless wrecks all up and down the coast, in fact there appears to be more wealth lost in the water than there is currently on land.

Hi there, actually Sable Island is known up here as the "Graveyard of the Atlantic". It has wild horses on it, which are descendants of horses from one of those shipwrecks. There are oil drilling rights all around the island at the moment, with little activity mind you. The island itself has been designated as a National Park.

The waters are quite scary around the island, as we are dealing with an unforgiving North Atlantic.

And if you knew our government up here and its love of red tape, I would suggest the only way to hunt for those shipwrecks may be with a cloak of invisibility.

Sad I know, but true.

 

[rowanns]

"Skepticism keeps us honest in our pursuit of truth."

It can also keep one blind.

 

[rowanns]

Quick calculation for folks. If sea levels have risen even 1mm per year for the past six hundred years, then we are dealing with about two and a half feet of land around Oak Island that is now underwater, but once wasn't. An average 2mm rise would double that number. Wouldn't someone want to take rising sea levels into account with regard to Smith's Cove? If a person believes the beach at Smith's Cove to be artificial, then those simple figures above would make the idea plausible.

Just some things to ponder, that's all.