History repeats itself... How many times has the sink hole been dug?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hi; coffee""" There is always an exception to the rule that keeps it from being a clear cut deal. "The best laid plans of men and mice -----:'

llosede Le Mancha

 

[Dave Rishar]

Your knowledge and skepticism is well respected and any attention to my Freemason's Celestial Map would be greatly appreciated.

You'd think that a former sailor would know some things about celestial navigation beyond the obvious, but I do not. Navigation was always something handled by "those other guys" (a far nicer term than the ones that we applied to them at the time, I can assure you), and I'd never given it much thought as my own personal concerns and responsibilities were in other areas. It may take me time to get up to speed, but I'll make the attempt.

Coffee, of course, remains a constant that I'm familiar with. I've come a long way in my preference for coffee since my Navy days, but I believe that it's something that I'm qualified to discuss without preparation.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

A swab job Horrers I NEED COFFEE?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Dave Rishar]

No takers on that other Henry? Oh, well.

Henry the Navigator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The timeline is a bit off, but the timeline with Sinclair requires some hand waving to work as well.

 

[treasure1822]

Henry the navigator, possible but I believe that without more documentation he would be placed into the same category of the Zeno Brothers being a part of it.

 

[Dave Rishar]

...which is a problem, because the Zeno story is highly questionable for a couple of different reasons. Still, I'm curious as to why Henry the Navigator doesn't get more play in these theories. He's a much better fit than Sinclair.

 

[treasure1822]

Henry the navagator is said to navigate the Atlantic islands but which ones.

 

[NostraDanis]

Henry the Navigator was also a nice thoroughbred racehorse, and is currently a very popular sire... but, I don't think he ever raced on Oak Island.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Henry the navagator is said to navigate the Atlantic islands but which ones.

He didn't just establish routes to them, but also claimed them for Portugal. Some of them are still Portugese possessions today. Had he gone all the way to the New World, he would have claimed that too. That's one of the reasons why I don't believe that he ever did, although he had the skills, the ships, the sailors, and possibly most importantly, the money necessary to do so.

His work in and around Africa was ultimately of more importance than his activities in the Atlantic, but the man certainly got around. He was also instrumental in the development of the caravel, which in turn made the Portugese Age of Discovery possible and was a significant factor in establishing Portugal as a world power.

He fits the description of Zichmni in nearly every way - much better than Sinclair does in any event. I've never seen him mentioned before in association with Templar treasure tales though. I'm not entirely sure why, but I have a theory of my own. It's going to make some people angry.

 

[burlbark]

I cant believe a thread I started and only posted once in could be used to entice the non-suspecting and contrive evidence through sheer speculation. The money pit is a sink hole.....Nothing more. People over the years have found a way to profit off of it. It is a lesson for all of humanity on the gullible nature of greed.

 

[rowanns]

No takers on that other Henry? Oh, well.

Henry the Navigator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The timeline is a bit off, but the timeline with Sinclair requires some hand waving to work as well.

It's Henry the Navigator Dave - Knights of Christ

 

[rowanns]

The Real Corte brothers folks, Fagundes, the Azores (Terceira Island), Treaty of Tordesillas (1494). Think about it.....

 

[rowanns]

Dave, Henry the Navigator, for the most part, went the other way - Africa. Other Portuguese navigators, however, did come this way.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Dave, Henry the Navigator, for the most part, went the other way - Africa. Other Portuguese navigators, however, did come this way.

I know that, and you knew that, but it certainly didn't seem to be common knowledge around here. He did get some action out in the Atlantic though...one of those island chains or another. But yes, he was fascinated by Africa, and yes, there were other guys like him that went west.

I brought him up because he was actually a pretty good fit for Zichmni, and no one else had thought to mention him. Of course, Prince Henry the Navigator was not mentioned in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," nor any of its derivitives, either. Coincidence?

 

[rowanns]

I know that, and you knew that, but it certainly didn't seem to be common knowledge around here. He did get some action out in the Atlantic though...one of those island chains or another. But yes, he was fascinated by Africa, and yes, there were other guys like him that went west.

I brought him up because he was actually a pretty good fit for Zichmni, and no one else had thought to mention him. Of course, Prince Henry the Navigator was not mentioned in "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," nor any of its derivitives, either. Coincidence?

"In 1607, Samuel de Champlain identified the remains of a large cross ("an old cross, all covered with moss, and almost wholly rotted away") at what is now Advocate, Nova Scotia on the Minas Basin. He attributed the erection of the cross to Fagundes, whom he presumed to have visited the spot some eight decades earlier."

The Fagundes in question was Joao Alvares Fagundes, a little known Portuguese explorer. It appears that Champlain was quite familiar with Portuguese exploration and short-lived settlement (s).

Zichmni may not have been Henry the Navigator, but Fagundes or any of the Corte Real brothers out of the Azores might be an interesting investigation worth pursuing.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Again, for the record, I don't believe that Henry ever made it out there. My whole point in bringing him up in the first place was because there are a number of people convinced that a prince named Henry went to the New World on behalf of the Templars sometime in the 14th century, and he's a much better fit for the role than Sinclair could ever be. I'm fairly certain that neither one ever went there, although Henry the Navigator could have. I was merely pointing out the problems associated with basing theories on one pseudohistorical piece and its derivitives, rather than consulting accepted historical documents that could possibly answer the question with much less speculation involved.

Interesting thing about the cross. My first guess would have been Icelanders, but the timeline doesn't work out. (Although I suppose that it could, as we don't really know when they stopped going there. We only know when they stopped writing about it. Seeing as how they'd let the Greenland settlements wither and die at around the same period of time, I don't expect that they were still travelling to the New World by then. Again, interesting.) The Portuguese could have done it, but if it was out of their jurisdiction and they didn't want the Spanish to know that they were going there, why leave evidence of it?

Your little corner of North America has a very interesting history, Rowanns. It may be even more interesting than I'd inititally suspected. It's a pity that this isn't studied more widely. When I was a child, we were not taught that Icelanders had made it to the New World 500 years before Columbus, even though it had already been established as fact for over a decade. I wonder what they're teaching kids these days. When I point out to people that there's solid proof that the Icelanders made it to Canada circa 1000 AD, they call B.S. on me. I refer them to L'Anse aux Meadows and they almost always say, "WTF? Why didn't I learn this in school?" It's exactly the reaction that I had when I learned about it. Then I point out that they probably went further south than that and all hell breaks loose.

I get the impression that only Scandinavians and Icelanders care about it. Why is this so neglected among North American archaeologists? It seems important to me, and worthy of further investigation.

If L'Anse aux Meadows is any indication, we won't know anything about early Portuguese voyages to the New World unless the Porguguese get involved. The Americans and Canadians appear to be uninterested.

 

[rowanns]

Hi Dave, the location of the cross Champlain found was actually within the jurisdiction of the Portuguese. The Treaty of Tordesillas (1494) went right through Nova Scotia according to the Homen Map of 1554. The Spanish were more concerned with gold and the riches they had found around Mexico, so I'm not sure why they would have given this part of the world the time of day. For Portugal, however, it was a different matter. They were bound to investigate what they had been granted and we know they did. I'm with Champlain on this one and his stated reference to the Portuguese and Fagundes. As for Oak Island, I'm really leaning toward a Portuguese presence on this.

The Norse were most definitely here and the evidence coming out of Labrador is now pointing toward an extended period of contact. In Iceland, it is a given they were here. Here in the Maritimes of Canada, it is a given that they were here. Heck, we had a replica of a Viking ship in Halifax harbour a few years back that had made the journey across the Atlantic. No one batted an eye, as all knew they were here.

There are archaeologists working on the issue of the Viking presence in the New World, but they are few and far between.

In Nova Scotia at the moment, if it isn't Acadian, British, or Mi'kmaw, the powers that be just aren't interested. It is political foolishness - don't want to upset these three groups you see - heaven forbid a history book should be re-written. Don't offend anyone's sensibilities. This province is the poster child for this nonsence.

There are folks on both sides of the Atlantic who are keenly interested in the Portuguese presence here in Nova Scotia, but it is an area of study that is only followed by a few. I think that is going to change within the next fews years. I have seen things in this province that just make no sense unless one is open to the notion that contact was made well before Champlain.

Cheers

 

[denemante]

Regardless of how many times the money pit has been dug, modern machinery could dig out the money pit to a depth easily beyond what had ever been dug before. And with enough horsepower and pumps, the flood from boobytraps (uh, or just natural water because it's an island, duh) could be kept out. This process would take about a week and a half, and likely cost under $250,000. Somebody start a Kickstarter, let's raise $250K and put this mystery to rest. I'm sure The History Channel has $250K. But perhaps they are more interested in prolonging the show. Dig! Demand it!