How do you discount the testimonials?

[Tom_in_CA]

No doubt you've all seen the ads in the treasure magazines and KellyCo. for Long Range Locators. In those ads, there will invariably be iron-clad testimonials, showing someone posing next to the jar of coins he found, etc.... How can you doubt specific proof like that? I mean, if a guy finds a jar of coins or whatever, with his LRL, you can't argue with success, right??

Here in my part of CA, we have a lot of Mexican immigrants in the population. One of my employees, a Mexican, knew that my hobby was detecting. He introduced me to a friend of his, a recent immigrant from Mexico, who wanted information about detectors. Long story short, this fellow, like a lot Mexicans, believes there are lots of treasures "back where he comes from in Mexico", and began to spin lots of tales and legends. He believed that if only he could take a detector down there, he'd certainly find stuff. His home town, for example, dated back to the 1600s, as a mining town during the spanish conquest times, in the Sierra Madres.

I showed him various detectors and their capabilities. Before long, I agreed to accompany him down there for a few weeks, to partner with him on this hunt. In the weeks before we left, he bought a treasure magazine and started looking at the various advertisements. When he saw the long range locator ads, he was spell-bound! He brought the magazine to me and suggests that perhaps we should buy these, to have to help in our hunt. I tried to tell the guy that they were bogus hocus-pocus junk, but he just wouldn't believe me. Afterall, how do you argue with the actual pictures of treasures these guys had found? Huh? Huh?? Turns out that where he's from down in Mexico, I guess a lot of people down there are into this bent coat hanger type stuff, and stories circulate about people having found treasures by dowsing down there (lots of superstition in their culture).

Anyhow, I eventually talked him out of spending his hard earned money on the cr*p, but it got me thinking. I mean, I had to give him concrete answers of how such stuff could be sold in reputable magazines.

It boiled down to this: Suppose, for a minute that someone DID actually find a treasure with an LRL? Here's how I would still discount it: History is filled with stories of people who accidentally stumble onto buried valuables, right? I mean there are true stories of gardeners or construction workers, who dig up something they weren't even looking for, by accident right? Ok then, how much MORE SO is someone who is SPECIFICALLY looking for valuables, and digging holes, eventually going to find something? Of course if you dig enough holes, in enough historic places, you will eventually find something. And "presto", the LRL did it! Like you research a story that someone buried valuables on a homestead, or whatever, so you go out there pointing your LRL all around. Subconsciously, if you really believe the thing works, you will be drawn to likely places. Ie.: by a likely looking tree, or any other spot you think a person would likely have buried something. It's not the LRL doing it, it's your own hunches. Just like any guy with a detector can look at a field where he researched out that picnics used to occur, and just by looking at the field, can probably guess where the most activity took place (shade trees, etc...) Or a nugget hunter looks at a stream bed, and is drawn to the most likely places that nugget will collect. He needs no LRL to do that, it's just experience with where stuff is most likely to be. So go figure the LRL guy who thinks his LRL is pointing him to treasures, is most likely just going by hunches, just like anyone else would do while seeking goodies. And, of course, he uses a metal detector to "pinpoint" the precise location of goodies. But no, it wasn't the detector that found it, it was the LRL that pointed him in that direction! How bogus! Don't they see?

And if they dig 100 dry holes, they write it off to sunspots, minerals, bad magnetic interference that day (durned all those spooks anyhow), etc ... etc.... I actually got into a long conversation with an LRL believer about this. He responded like this: "well, do you ALWAYS find goodies each time you go out with your detector? Haven't you ever gotten skunked, or only dug junk, etc...?" To which I responded "yes, I get skunked quite often". To that, he says "Aha! then why the double standard to discredit LRLs when they have fruitless hunts? Afterall, we're going for the big treasures, not the solo coins, where you don't always score and are willing to wait it out and keep hunting". Aaarrgghh! They have this continuous loop of circular logic to prop up their beliefs.

Sorry, had to vent

 

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[ClonedSIM]

You're right on with your proposed explanation. There are dowsers here that will claim their rods or LRL's or whatever lead them right to the front yard of an old house , where they proceed to break out an actual metal detector and dig up their treasure which, predictably, they attribute to their dowsing skills.

Or, another member who shall not be named, claims to go out and regularly dig up gold that he finds with his dowsing rods. The catch? He goes into gold-bearing fields, digs large holoes, spends who knows how long processing the dirt to find the gold, and claims a few tiny flakes as a dowsing success.

Really, the bottom line is that the only way to prove to someone that these "tools" are little more than expensive paperweights is to let them make the mistake of buying one and find out for themselves.

 

[Montana Jim]

I need some eagle button rods... the dang 9 volt costs are killing me!

 

[Twisted Fork]

The fact is that most dowsers can't use rods in the first place. Try this yourself. Find a young willow tree and clip out a fork of which the branches are about as big as your little finger. Make the double arms of the fork about two to two and one half feet in length. The single shaft at the end should be about 8 inches in length. Acquire two pure pieces of silver (coins or jewelry ect). Place one silver piece on the lawn, and back away from it about twenty feet away. Place the other coin in your cheek. I would suggest you try this alone first in order to avoid distraction. Hold the fork like a post hole digger in front of you, aiming down with your elbows touching your ribs. Relax your body and then bend your elbows so that your fists are at the level of your chin on either side. Allow the ends of the willow to rest between your thumbs and fingers. Now gently roll your hands away from your face causing the fork to flex apart until the fork begins to feel like spring tension. Aim at the coin 20 feet away and slowly walk towards it. See if the willow doesn't pull down as you approach the other coin. The first time I tried this, it twisted the bark off the limbs. Honest Injun

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted fork, surely you jest?

A metal detector has a precise electronic reason as to why it works, and be replicated over and over again by anyone. Anyone can wave the coin over the coil and the machine beeps. But there is no scientific/electronic explanation as to why what you're saying would work. I mean, if I told you to hold a peanut butter sandwich out at arms length, and it will dip when you walk over a silver coin, you could no more refute that, than I could refute you. And if you did get a branch to do what you say, I say that borders on the mystical, unknown, metaphysical, etc.... Ie.: you're leaving the arena of scientific explanation and delving into spiritual things, and I don't think that's wise. Ie.: I wouldn't attend seances, or get my palms read, etc... even if someone could chime in saying they had a successful experience with those things.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Twisted fork, surely you jest?

A metal detector has a precise electronic reason as to why it works, and be replicated over and over again by anyone. Anyone can wave the coin over the coil and the machine beeps. But there is no scientific/electronic explanation as to why what you're saying would work. I mean, if I told you to hold a peanut butter sandwich out at arms length, and it will dip when you walk over a silver coin, you could no more refute that, than I could refute you. And if you did get a branch to do what you say, I say that borders on the mystical, unknown, metaphysical, etc.... Ie.: you're leaving the arena of scientific explanation and delving into spiritual things, and I don't think that's wise. Ie.: I wouldn't attend seances, or get my palms read, etc... even if someone could chime in saying they had a successful experience with those things.

It wouldn't hurt anything to try a bit of dowsing on your own, just to say that you have and it didn't work for you. I did the same thing a few months back after a discussion with another dowser. Tried the rods, got no response, and then went out and found all the goodies with my detector. The reason I was given for why the rods didn't work? I didn't believe in them.
I do have to give Twisted Fork credit, though. He is certainly a lot more grounded than a lot of other dowsers I've read.

That being said, dowsing lacks anything that would make me believe in it. No repetition of results, not experiencing similar results for all people who try it. It really is more faith-based that anything scientific. But if you want some good laughs, go into the general dowsing thread and read some of the old posts and try to comprehend some dowsers explanations for why it supposedly works.

 

[MD Dog]

Not to go all religous on ya, but my bible study teacher used to say.
" Sittin in church on Sundays won't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a garage on Mondays will make you a car" Fact or Fiction is in the heart of the believer and won't be swayed by meere Science. I'm not about to say it won't work just cause it won't for me.

 

[ClonedSIM]

The fact is that most dowsers can't use rods in the first place. Try this yourself. Find a young willow tree and clip out a fork of which the branches are about as big as your little finger. Make the double arms of the fork about two to two and one half feet in length. The single shaft at the end should be about 8 inches in length. Acquire two pure pieces of silver (coins or jewelry ect). Place one silver piece on the lawn, and back away from it about twenty feet away. Place the other coin in your cheek. I would suggest you try this alone first in order to avoid distraction. Hold the fork like a post hole digger in front of you, aiming down with your elbows touching your ribs. Relax your body and then bend your elbows so that your fists are at the level of your chin on either side. Allow the ends of the willow to rest between your thumbs and fingers. Now gently roll your hands away from your face causing the fork to flex apart until the fork begins to feel like spring tension. Aim at the coin 20 feet away and slowly walk towards it. See if the willow doesn't pull down as you approach the other coin. The first time I tried this, it twisted the bark off the limbs. Honest Injun

This will work every time as long as you know where the coin is on the lawn.

If you honestly let someone else hide the coin on the lawn, and then they leave the area before you arrive; your success rate will only be that of ordinary guessing. Try it, you will see.

Amen, brother!

 

[Tom_in_CA]

af1733, when you say that the LRL folk told you the reason for your lack of success was because: "I didn't believe in them" (the LRL rods), that hits the nail on the head!!!!! I mean, right there, that basic statement reduces it to spiritual, unknown, metaphysical, mystical, etc.... Period, end of statement. If they now go on to try to scientifically explain why it works, they've contradicted themselves.

 

[ClonedSIM]

af1733, when you say that the LRL folk told you the reason for your lack of success was because: "I didn't believe in them" (the LRL rods), that hits the nail on the head!!!!! I mean, right there, that basic statement reduces it to spiritual, unknown, metaphysical, mystical, etc.... Period, end of statement. If they now go on to try to scientifically explain why it works, they've contradicted themselves.

You know, Tom, I've mentioned that. If rods work based on scientific principals, then why don't they work for everyone? One of the many reasons I was given then is that certain people have the ability and some don't, much like double-jointedness or some such nonsense. It's really incredible the beliefs that dowsers hang their hats on in defense of their hobby.

One guy explained it like this: The sunspots that generate on a 13-year cycle allow waves to travel through space, bounce off of precious metals buried in the ground, which then generate some sort of signal that travel up a dowser's rods and then into a "crystal" that all humans have in their heads that helps them find directions (true north, etc.) If the right people are holding rods at this time, then they can follow the signal to the gold.
Granted, this same guy also proposed taping magnets to your head to help the rods work better, but I like to think he represents a majority of dowsers....

 

[ClonedSIM]

af1733, when you say that the LRL folk told you the reason for your lack of success was because: "I didn't believe in them" (the LRL rods), that hits the nail on the head!!!!! I mean, right there, that basic statement reduces it to spiritual, unknown, metaphysical, mystical, etc.... Period, end of statement. If they now go on to try to scientifically explain why it works, they've contradicted themselves.

Conventional science, the type you can find in textbooks, is not something that has anything at all to do with dowsing. The only ones who try to explain dowsing by associating it with conventional scientific terms such as; fields, waves, frequencies, radiations, signal lines, polarities, magnetism, etc, are doing so for one of two reasons:

a.) they don't want to believe it is strictly a mental-based phenomenon

b.) they have some type of dowsing gadget (or method) to sell and it will be much easier to sell if it can be explained with borrowed scientific terms already familiar to the "mark"

And again; AMEN, Brother!!

 

[ClonedSIM]

af1733, when you say that the LRL folk told you the reason for your lack of success was because: "I didn't believe in them" (the LRL rods), that hits the nail on the head!!!!! I mean, right there, that basic statement reduces it to spiritual, unknown, metaphysical, mystical, etc.... Period, end of statement. If they now go on to try to scientifically explain why it works, they've contradicted themselves.

Conventional science, the type you can find in textbooks, is not something that has anything at all to do with dowsing. The only ones who try to explain dowsing by associating it with conventional scientific terms such as; fields, waves, frequencies, radiations, signal lines, polarities, magnetism, etc, are doing so for one of two reasons:

a.) they don't want to believe it is strictly a mental-based phenomenon

b.) they have some type of dowsing gadget (or method) to sell and it will be much easier to sell if it can be explained with borrowed scientific terms already familiar to the "mark"

And again; AMEN, Brother!!

We seem to be on the same wavelength.

(pun intended)

LOL!!!!

 

[Twisted Fork]

I guess that would explain why two 21 pound Spanish gold dore' ingots were produced in the same manner. So your saying that I already knew they were there? Or that since I'm only 50 years old and the ingots were buried in 1856, that there must be a connection? Hmmmm that's interesting. Twisted

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted Fork, you found two 21 pound spanish gold dore' ingots with some form of LRL? (what's a "dore"?).

You ask: "So your saying that I already knew they were there?" What I'm saying is that whatever it was that you found, was not found by LRL. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'd love to hear the specifics, but once I hear them, I'm certain it will boil down to these things: 1) you had a certain lead, hunch, likely spot, etc.... 2) you dug countless dry holes (durn those sun spots and magnetic fields anyhow) and 3) You used a metal detector (maybe) to "pinpoint" it.

If none of those 3 are true, then I'll become an instant believer! But I bet at least 2 of them is true. If you did dig something, it's just the odds of probability that if you dig enough holes, in enough historic areas, you WILL stumble onto goodies eventually.

 

[Twisted Fork]

I was exploring around the vicinity of an old Spanish mine that had numerous markers in the area surrounding it. I'll admit I didn't know what was producing the pull, and it was a willow limb, not a wand. I didn't have any kind of digging tools, as the trip was intended to be a study on markers. I had a small gold ear ring in my cheek, and the pull started from more than 500 feet away, while I stood on the trail in the bottom of the canyon. There was also a 200 foot high cliff wall between myself and the site, that I had to walk around before hiking up hill in the direction of the pull. A bar of this nature consists of a first pour from the smelter, and usually runs 5 to 1 in favor of silver. They are most commonly found buried 80 feet above an air shaft or tunnel, and were placed in this form as a infield claim, being that the home office was hundreds of miles away. What ever amount of precious metals could be produced from one measured ton of the pay streak, was left in a deposit as such for evidence in behalf of the owner. I told some of the guys at work about the place and they made a bee line for it soon after. The ingots were right where I told them, buried 8 inches deep, in a crevice of which the original vein ran under. Some years before this, I went camping in the Tontos Mountains in Arizona where it is illegal to dig. With the same ear ring and in the same manner, from high atop a mountain, I was pulled to an outcrop out of sight, sticking up 8 feet out of the ground, in the bottom of the canyon, hundreds of feet away. A test of the ore color produced 2 ounces of gold to the ton and 7 ounces of silver. Like I've said before, few people feel anything with a wand, but most anyone can use a willow; it's just nature and the spirit radio in your head. For the same reasons your attracted to lightning. Twisted

 

[MD Dog]

I'd like to point out that there are some of these dowsers who've been successful more than once in fact some of them actually have a track record of being successful. Floyd Mann, one of the most successful treasure hunters of our time, Will on occassionally consult dowsers. Like I said before, no matter how or if this works it is nothing more or less than another tool that we might employ to help locate a specific treasure.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Some years before this, I went camping in the Tontos Mountains in Arizona where it is illegal to dig. With the same ear ring and in the same manner, from high atop a mountain, I was pulled to an outcrop out of sight, sticking up 8 feet out of the ground, in the bottom of the canyon, hundreds of feet away. A test of the ore color produced 2 ounces of gold to the ton and 7 ounces of silver. Twisted

Why would you go dowsing in a place it's illegal to dig? And who did do the dig to produce the test results?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted Fork and Mad-dog, I would still dispute that the LRL (willowstick, coathanger, or whatever) actually had anything to do with the finding those things. I believe that anyone who has a good sense of treasure hunting, is drawn to the most likely spots to find things. Like, I have a friend who is amongst the top nugget hunters around (has been featured in Whites ads for their nugget machines as their poster-boy, etc...). He is so experienced in nuggets, that he can look at any canyon, gully, creekbed, etc... and immediately tell you where the most likely spot are for gold to be settled. He does not believe in dowsing, LRL, etc... But let's say he DID believe in it, and if you gave him the wand, his results might be the same. But in the latter case, he'd say "aha! the dowsing found it!"

But if I'm wrong, and it could be shown that hidden things, in double blind tests, can be replicated over and over by a user, then I'd be leary on the following basis: #1 There is absolutely no basis for why it works. I mean, what a willow branch or coat hanger or earing in your ear got to do with a dore 80 yards away? #2 therefore that only leaves the supernatural as an explanation. Like, the unknown. In that case you're bordering on things like psychic abilities, etc..... I would not participate in anything like that, just as I would not attend seances, practice new age, etc.... I mean yeah, there's even been satanists who actually do bring up results, or new agers who supposedly do remote viewing (and can describe places they've never been to or whatever). The end doesn't justify the means in that case, and, if we can enter religion into this conversation (since dowsing is not scientific) I don't want to subject myself to dark forces, just because they may work.

 

[MD Dog]

See TominCa, that's is where 'I would agree wit ya. I'm not saying that we should use people who truly have this ability or whatever it is. Too the contrary, I like you, know all too well, the Bibles admonishings too steer clear of such super natural activities. My only point was that it may be real. I don't know if it is and we should not discount those who say it is. I'll personally stick to good research, my metal detector, and a keen wit. But for those who wish to delve into this realm in the hopes it might further their ambitions in treasure hunting then by all means go for it I won't discount their abilities or chances as less than mine.

 

[jeff of pa]

reminder

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