How to find the Lost Dutchman mine...

[Oroblanco]

Greetings,

Lets hear some theories as to how to find the Lost Dutchman mine of Jacob Waltz in the Superstition mountains of Arizona, such as through the Holmes manuscript, the Peralta stones, etc. Thank you in advance,

Oroblanco

 

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[gollum]

Fly over the Supers in a plane, and just look down to see it!

OOOPS! My bad. Someone already did that!

My best bet would be to get friendly with Scott Wood (Chief Archaeologist for Tonto National Forest). Get his assistance. HeII, he's been working the area for 25 years professionally, and playing there for 10 years before that.

Mike

 

[ericwt]

USGS Sniffer program. It is an mercury detection system that is installed on a low flying plane.

You better get to know someone in the USGS. Because trying to get information on this program or past survey results is like attempting to pull an infected tooth on a frightened person not on pain killing medication and Laughing gas, when you are not a dentist.

Good luck to ya!

 

[Springfield]

Hate to repeat myself with rational thoughts, but here goes:

A man named Jacob Waltz was an historical figure in Arizona. The paper trail that remains verifies that fact. It's also strongly arguable that Waltz, or someone using that name, who lived in Phoenix in the late 19th Century, had access to significant quantities of high-grade gold ore. Where he got it and what his motives were for associating the ore to the Superstition Mountains is unknown.

Nearly all the lore surrounding this legend is speculative, offered by theorists, some of whom may have questionable integrity and/or a personal agenda. Their publications and discoveries through the years are interesting but so far have proved nothing. The "source information" presumably originating from Waltz himself and his confidants of the time - the basis for all the speculation - may or may not have been accurately reported. If accurately reported, it may have been disinformation to begin with. The results of both possibilities are the same.

I don't want to crash the party, but isn't it obvious that the story as we know it has been a very successful red herring? A lot of people have died looking for the LDM - which publicly available clues would you bet your life on?

 

[woodpecker]

Hi springfield ,

I Totaly agree with you ,

I been studying this for a while ,even the Peralta Stone maps have no solid link .


I have seen no reference to say the maps are linked to lost dutchman mine except for speculation , because where they were supposedly discovered possibly even after theft ,in or near to superstition mountains where they were possibly discovered, i believe these could well be jesuit maps , simply because they appear to be expertly made/crafted by a stone mason , and they were rumored to be stolen , so the link with superstition mountains possibly does not even exist ,

can anyone add to this ?


any thoughts ?

woodpecker ,

 

[the blindbowman]

Fake .....well the person that finds it think so ....No

 

[cactusjumper]

There is one (1) book that gives the exact directions on how to find the LDM. If you follow those directions, you will most likely, almost, fall into the covered over pit. There will be those who will disagree, but I don't believe they know all of the facts, and many of the facts that they do know are fiction.

Could it be seen from the air?.....Yes, but you would need to be in a helicopter, very close to the ground and know exactly where to look. Remember this: If a mine were found in the Wilderness Area, it would need to be worth the risk to work it......without a permit. If you find such a "worked out" pit-mine, you have to consider what was in it that was worth the risk.$$$$$

I should think that most searchers would agree, that the best place to start would be to take the evidence that was generated closest to the events. That would be: Thomas, Petrasch, Bicknell, Bark/Ely and perhaps, one little known searcher. In this case, only two of those would land you close or... on top of the LDM.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Jeffro]

How many searchers have there been over the years? Thousands? How much money for all the newest, latest, greatest equipment has been spents? Millions? Tens of millions?

Couple this with the fact that some of the best researchers known have concluded that this mine never existed.....


Leads me to believe it's a red herring as well.

 

[gollum]

No, it's there. Just like Jacob said, "You could drive a pack train over the pit, and never know it's there."

Jeffro,

SOME of the best researchers said it doesn't exist, but many more say it does.

If it doesn't, please explain where the known ore samples came from? Since gold ore is like a fingerprint, and the known Waltz Ore does not match ANY gold ore from ANY mine ANYWHERE in the world. ANYBODY who knows anything about mining, will tell you that this can only mean ONE THING: There is a VERY valuable vein of gold ore that has NEVER been tapped (except by Waltz).

I won't go into all the other myriads of evidence that supports the existence of the LDM.

Best,

Mike

 

[Jeffro]

I've heard that USGS reports flatly state the geologic conditions in the Superstitions are not favorable for those mineral deposits at all, too.

But hey, what do geologists know anyways?

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, it very well could. The possibility is so slim it's not worth my time. Just my opinion.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Sorry, but the following statement is not factual:

"If it doesn't, please explain where the known ore samples came from? Since gold ore is like a fingerprint, and the known Waltz Ore does not match ANY gold ore from ANY mine ANYWHERE in the world. ANYBODY who knows anything about mining, will tell you that this can only mean ONE THING: There is a VERY valuable vein of gold ore that has NEVER been tapped (except by Waltz)."

Dr. Glover, who is the only person, known, to have tested what is claimed to be "Dutchman ore", had this to say:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[To illustrate just how quickly and completely stories get twisted and/or created, let's look at the previous reports of ore testing. To my knowledge, these reports of ore testing have all been wishful thinking, or as a fiend of mine says, "they take a grain of sand and make a beach."
When I first became seriously interested in the story of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the history behind the legend, I was told that ore recovered from under the bed of Jacob Waltz had been tested and found to be different from any other known mine in Arizona, I was intrigued, to say the least. Then recently in Corbin's The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold I found affidavits stating the individual who owns the assay report and jewelry made from the ore, sent it to:

"...the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source."

Strong stuff. The trouble is, it never happened.
The individual referred to (who wishes to and has the right to remain anonymous) did not send his ore to the University of Arizona, nor does he know of the survival of the original assay report. Moreover, the University of Arizona has not had a School of Mines for over 70 years. (They do, however, have a College of Engineering and Mines.) Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. (I assume the "world" would be included in Dr. Glover's statement). No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist.
One is left with tests that never took place, at a non-existent School of Mines using for comparison a non-existent collection of gold ores. How did such a plethora of misinformation come about? I believe it was not through malice. Apparently some casual comments were made about the jewelry ore. The story then grows, and grows becoming 'scientific fact' with university credentials, when it never happened. To my knowledge, here has not been any actual testing of Dutchman Ore other than that which is reported here for the first time.] Pages 274-275 The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz By T.E. Glover, PhD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

History is often changed and becomes "scientific fact" one word at a time. Let's not become part of that changing.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Mike,

Sorry, but the following statement is not factual:

"If it doesn't, please explain where the known ore samples came from? Since gold ore is like a fingerprint, and the known Waltz Ore does not match ANY gold ore from ANY mine ANYWHERE in the world. ANYBODY who knows anything about mining, will tell you that this can only mean ONE THING: There is a VERY valuable vein of gold ore that has NEVER been tapped (except by Waltz)."

Dr. Glover, who is the only person, known, to have tested what is claimed to be "Dutchman ore", had this to say:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[To illustrate just how quickly and completely stories get twisted and/or created, let's look at the previous reports of ore testing. To my knowledge, these reports of ore testing have all been wishful thinking, or as a fiend of mine says, "they take a grain of sand and make a beach."
When I first became seriously interested in the story of the Lost Dutchman Mine and the history behind the legend, I was told that ore recovered from under the bed of Jacob Waltz had been tested and found to be different from any other known mine in Arizona, I was intrigued, to say the least. Then recently in Corbin's The Curse of the Dutchman's Gold I found affidavits stating the individual who owns the assay report and jewelry made from the ore, sent it to:

"...the University of Arizona, School of Mines which has samples of gold ore from every known Arizona gold mine to see if the ore could be matched up. I was further told by this individual that the University of Arizona, School of Mines had informed him that this ore came from an unknown source."

Strong stuff. The trouble is, it never happened.
The individual referred to (who wishes to and has the right to remain anonymous) did not send his ore to the University of Arizona, nor does he know of the survival of the original assay report. Moreover, the University of Arizona has not had a School of Mines for over 70 years. (They do, however, have a College of Engineering and Mines.) Further, the entire premise that the ore could be tested against ore from every known mine in Arizona is ludicrous. (I assume the "world" would be included in Dr. Glover's statement). No one, nor any institution, has such a collection of gold ores. It does not exist.
One is left with tests that never took place, at a non-existent School of Mines using for comparison a non-existent collection of gold ores. How did such a plethora of misinformation come about? I believe it was not through malice. Apparently some casual comments were made about the jewelry ore. The story then grows, and grows becoming 'scientific fact' with university credentials, when it never happened. To my knowledge, here has not been any actual testing of Dutchman Ore other than that which is reported here for the first time.] Pages 274-275 The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz By T.E. Glover, PhD
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

History is often changed and becomes "scientific fact" one word at a time. Let's not become part of that changing.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Hey Joe,

Did you actually read the book, or just take the quote from somewhere?

Although my post should have said "ANY KNOWN mines", my post still stands. Glover had known samples of the ore (jewelry, Kochera, and Camp) tested at the Mackay School of Mines in Reno Nevada, at their Paul Laxalt Mineral Engineering Center.

I am not going to type all the text from pages 268-283, but they tested ore believed to come from Waltz' Cigar Box (that had been made into jewelry), against the Kochera and Camp Ores (known to have been found in the Supers), and ore from Goldfields and the Vulture Mine (the two places most debunkers claim Waltz' Ore came from).

The results were that all the jewelry ores were from the same vein. The jewelry, Kochera and Camp Ores all probably came from the same geologic event (read same area). The Jewelry, Kochera, and Camp Ores were COMPLETELY different from either Goldfields Ore or ore from the Vulture Mine.

Their results also noted that the Jewelry, Kochera, and Camp Ores were different from known ores in Central Arizona. Could they have been from somewhere else? Who knows.

Jeffro,

You state:

I've heard that USGS reports flatly state the geologic conditions in the Superstitions are not favorable for those mineral deposits at all, too.

They state that volcanic terrain is not conducive to mineralization. That is just not true. In Glover's Book (again) Goldfield, Nevada (not Arizona) is located in a volcanic caldera (ring), and is exceedingly rich in minerals (including gold). The gold there assayed at 225 ounces per ton (whereas most profitable gold mines operate at a few ounces per ton).

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Did you actually read the book, or just take the quote from somewhere?"

I have read Dr. Glover's book a number of times, and have highlighted many parts of my first copy of the book. Thomas and I have had our share of discussions and the Glover's have spent a bit of time as guests in our home.

I have a signed second edition in which I am credited with one of the photos, and a short mention of my Uncle Chuck is made. In other words, I have a passing acquaintance with the subject at hand. Perhaps not as much as you do, but....passing.

I find, after 48 years, that I can always learn something new. You will find that I seldom make statements that I can't back up. On those occasions when I do, I have no problem admitting my mistake. In this case, your original statement (I believe) oversteps your knowledge of the subject.

All of your comments using "KNOWN" would be more accurate if you had used ALLEGED, IMHO. Since that is just my personal opinion, I could....of course.....be wrong.

Hope all is going well for you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

No. I think that by a preponderance of the evidence shows that the jewelry ore came from Waltz' Cigar Box. Thomas didn't seem to have much trouble locating it.

We have PM'ed several times from the LDM Forums.

The only thing that would require the use of the word "alledged" (IMO), would be that the three ore samples were from a vein in the Supers. The two from Goldfields and the Vulture were KNOWN without doubt.

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"....the jewelry ore came from Waltz' Cigar Box."

As I said, I can always learn something new.

I suppose Dick Holmes may have kept some of the finer specimans to make jewelry with, but when you consider the fact that Holmes was "unemployed....short of funds" and had a wife who was close to giving birth to Brownie, you might wonder if that sounds logical.

As for the Kochera Ore, I think it is altogether possible that it may have come from the LDM. Did Kochera find that ore? Seems likely, but I seriously doubt much of the story.

"We have PM'ed several times from the LDM Forums."

Didn't mean to question your association with Dr. Glover. Sorry if that's the way it came out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Hey Joe,

I know how trendy you are with your interests, today the LDM, tomorrow Cosmetology School, the day after Bigfoot! You don't spend enough time learning about anything to become very knowledgeable about it!!!!!!!

Here are scans from Tom Glover's Book we have been so liberally quoting from regarding the Jewelry Ore:

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Thanks for the scanned material. Prior to quoting from the book I read the chapter over again, which is common practice for me.

"I know how trendy you are with your interests, today the LDM, tomorrow Cosmetology School, the day after Bigfoot! You don't spend enough time learning about anything to become very knowledgeable about it!!!!!!!"

It's hard to concentrate on one thing, trying to keep up with the conversation that flows from you and people like Wyatt and bowman. I just muddle about and do the best I can to keep up with the more knowledgeable folks.

By the way.....What is your source for the "Waltz' Cigar Box"? I reckon that's one of the quotes I missed from..... "somewhere".

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

You know Joe, I couldn't tell you where I saw that. but a cigar box doesn't seem quite large enough to fit the bill does it? I read it somewhere, and it's one of those things that stuck in my head.

Putting me in the same boat as Wyatt and Bowman! NOW THAT'S LOW! Even for you! I wouldn't say something like that about my worstest enemy (especially the Wyatt part, calling him an idiot is a disservice to idiots everywhere)!

Best,

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

You need to polish up your reading skills. I purposely separated you from Wyatt and bowman. It may be a fine line of separation, but there is a line. Some would probably make the same type of comparison.....with me.

Anyway.....Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Take care,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

the vedict is still out on that one ... wisdom dose not come from a peice of paper, nor dose intelligence. i grew up with a father that designed special eletronics for the US airfroce ...he did not think within the box and he was danm good at inventing high tect devolpments for our goverment ....some of things he invented are still in use today , over 40 years after he invented them ...

i have been self paced all my life and i always will be i hope ...not superman or any thing like that . i just learn to do things a diffrent way then most ...