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huge bipointed knife !!!!!!!

trevmma

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this is from a buddy of mine who has had many awesome peices go through his hands. its about 11inches, it has mineral deposits on it but i think its insane to be real being this nice,i have seen them though,.he has been collecting for over 40 years. thats all i know about it, maybe someone will know the ink marks thanks.
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Neanderthal said:
I'm not good at tip-toeing around online sentiments or giving pats on the back. If I come across as brash and hurtful - I do apologize. I am not a good teacher and have never professed to be. I rarely post because when I do I usually end up having to make 10 other posts for clarification. That's my standard disclaimer for when people get their feelings hurt anyways.

No, I don't know what ceremonial "looks" like and I don't think anyone else does either. It's not a look, it's a particular function in which something was utilized. The word "ceremonial" bothers me when people use it so loosely. If collectors can't easily identify a form or it looks too bawdy or large then they will slap the C word on it. Often times it's just lazy to use it, a cop out. The Native Americans made all kinds of large exotic fine pieces, but unless they are found in a context that would give it a definite association it's really hard to call something ceremonial.

I have indeed been to Gilcrease, many times. It's a wonderful museum full of great items, as you said. They have some world-class relics in the downstairs artifact display area.....and a ton of modern reproductions mixed in with them. The amount of fakes they have on display there is great, as with many other museums. If you are going to the museum to see ultra-kewl relics without regards to authenticity or accuracy then you've gone to the right place. For educational purposes...ehhh...not so much. Unfortunately the same can be said for many similar institutions.

I too love going to museums and have been to many. In fact, I work for one. I'm familiar with what "museum quality" really means. I used to think it meant something else. At one time (like most people), I thought it meant that it was the best specimen, rare, fine, etc. It really doesn't. In order for a museum to be able to keep their doors open, they have to cater to the public...all types of people. They have to catch and hold their interest. The items must intrigue the people enough to make them ask questions and want more, they have to be stimulating. If every person through the museum doors was a collector who already knew about artifacts then things would be different..but they aren't. The vast majority of patrons know very little about points. The points that mean a lot to us as collectors mean nothing to them, they need a visual stimulation.

There is no such thing as a museum quality Clovis, Folsom, Agate Basin, etc. The majority of people who walk through the doors don't give a rat's arse about those types..unless they are a collector and have previous knowledge of them. They are plain forms and there is nothing striking about them. We have display cases full of some of the best Clovis points you will ever see and most visitors will blow right past them. The same goes for many other point types that collectors would think are premium. In fact, one of the most recognizable blades ever found is on display at the museum - the Sweetwater Biface. However, to the flint-novices, it's simply just a big, thin stone. We do make sure that these special items are mentioned with display signs as well as part of an audio tour. But, if it wasn't for that, the museum patrons would rush on by without paying any heed.

So, what items ARE museum quality? As stated above, it's the unusual items. The delicate, colorful pieces seem to glean the most attention. Exotic forms like Toyah, Cahokia, Eastgate, and Agee always draw comments. Large hardstone grooved axes always make people intrigued. For larger points, Hopewell (Snyders Affinis) seem to draw the most attention. The one question most frequently asked in the museum is "where did they get the beads"? Especially in the historic section...but also prehistoric as well. Even though there are signs explaining them and it's on the audio wands, that still gets asked almost daily.

Out of all of the stone artifacts in the museum, there is one type that garners the most attention. It draws more curiosity and questions than any other form...by far. It doesn't matter how common or fine they are, they seem to be the ultimate "museum quality" relic. Would you or anyone care to guess what it is?

For me what I like more then anything else when I toured the museums are the stone pipes. I have a couple, but would love to have a hundred more, they are what grabs my attention.....

For what I know, and this is just me, I am NOT an authority, nor do I claim to be......A ceremonial piece when talking about stone artifacts would be very large knives and some stone pipes.

What I and my partners when I was hunting artifacts in Missouri considered museum quality were pieces that either graded a G10 or more so were very rare and unique, pieces in perfect condition, and usually were recovered from burial sites, caves etc in the late 1800s early 1900's.....

I collect several areas of the American Indian because I love the history of the American Indian, I have old Harper Weeklys and Leslie Weeklys from the mid 1800s with would block prints of indian life at the time as well as stories, most done by F. Remington, and Th Nast. I have antique books from mid 1800s with the known indian languages at the time, as well as maps for the same time period showing the known tribes, their locations, forts, and the trails to the west coast. Not an expert on any of these, just a collector. I also collect limited edition artwork by some of the leading artists on Indian life because I enjoy looking at it....

I am not here to argue with you or anyone, nor to tell anyone what they have is or isn't a fake, unless it is so obvious it screams at you that it is fake, it is very hard to tell if some are fakes or real just by pictures on a website.....I mean no disrespect to you or anyone on any of my posts or replies............

If you ever have the chance to go to the muesum in Cody Wy go, it is completely amazing as is the one in Springfield IL and the Favell Museum in Oregon.

I have a small collection myself, it is small but I enjoy it, and will keep it till I am old then it will probably go to my son if he wants it....

Good luck and good hunting to all...
 
Nice insite Treasure_hunter, and Neanderthal, from a passionate collector and a behind-the-scenes-museum-type-person. all your input is greatly appreciated by many on this forum (especially about the Gilcrease collection). I feel like I've been eavesdropping, but had to acknowledge appreciation. ;D
 
naturegirl said:
Nice insite Treasure_hunter, and Neanderthal, from a passionate collector and a behind-the-scenes-museum-type-person. all your input is greatly appreciated by many on this forum (especially about the Gilcrease collection). I feel like I've been eavesdropping, but had to acknowledge appreciation. ;D


I'll second that, lots of good info in this thread.
 
Pottery, shell gorgets maybe death mask? :dontknow:
 
TnMountains said:
Pottery, shell gorgets maybe death mask? :dontknow:

Shell gorgets and certain pottery do draw attention. It's funny, some $2,000 vessels glean much more interest than some that are $20,000+. But nope, am talking about flint. The #1 most interesting "museum quality" flint relic that garners the most attention ...........is...
 
I bet it's tiny prehistoric boomerangs like these. :tongue3:
 

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Arrowman - Ding, ding..we have a winner! Crescents bring forth the most commentary by far. Granted, the display of crescents we have up is pretty nice (50 or more), but there is no other flint display in the whole museum that seems to draw as much curiosity and interest. Visitors just can't seem to get enough of them, even though they are narrated and fully explained in the audio tour.

As far as pottery vessels go, Mississippian head pots win. It hurts my feelings that the complete Hopewellian Havanna Zone Stamped jar doesn't receive much attention, it's far more rare and my personal favorite. But...the head pots are the main focus of attention when it comes to ceramics - followed shortly thereafter by colorful Quapaw effigies.

P.S....is that green one Franciscan Chert or Oregon Jasper? What a sweetheart! My birthday is coming up you know......
 
I'm a little fond of the green one myself. I haven't been able to pinpoint the source of that material but I'm pretty sure it outcrops somewhere in Eastern Nevada. It looks pretty similar to other green jasper I've seen.
 
We have a LOT of green jasper here in Sonoma County, Northern California, and it looks just like that (most of it). Some of it is a lighter green like the point in my posting "St. Patrick's Day Point" but, I've seen jasper around here of virtually every color -- a lot of deep red and green and some bright gold-yellow.
 
i have really, really enjoyed this thread. you [2] bumping heads and coming out of it with a smile not a smirk,, but [2] smiles of a job well done at least that is what i read into what you all said.. i have had in [1] hand a[$10,000][13,ooo year old point with [2 or 3 ]sets of papers on it . the third owner had letters he knew the [2nd]owner whos grandfather who found it and to him, from grade school days. in the other hand i had a point that i though was the same age and value. boy was i wrong ,the [3rd]owner of the real old point knew the person he got the [2nd] one from who gave him colored photos and papers that stated that the point in photos was made in [2009] by who it was made and roughly where material came from.. this [2009] point will never be sold his wife and son have agreed to destroy all the fakes he has to help him decide if points are old artifacts or new made points. !!!! Every Point Is Real!!!! no matter who made it or when!!!
 
trevmma said:
i dont think its real he has some other peices like this . yhat are just to good. they all look good but i would not buy them, i was just curious if someone had seen it before.
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Trev- thanks for reminding what a "Senior Member" status represents and refreshing my memory of why I rarely ever post finds here. Sincerely, Rob (where's the middle finger emoticon?) :headbang: lol
 
I GOOFED ON THE LAST POST I POSTED TODAY ON THIS THREAD!! IT SHOLD READ HIS SON AND WIFE WOULD DESTORY THE FAKE POINTS IF HE PAST AWAY SUDONLY AS IN CAR WREAK AND DID NOT HAVE TIME YO DESTORY THEM HIMSELF .. IF YOU HAVE not GUEST HE DID NOT LIKE FACK ARTIFACTS... T.
 

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