ICAHM Protests Television Programs That Encourage Destruction of Heritage

[lostcauses]

".let the artifacts rot in the ground or have them retrieved out of context by detectorists."

And how long did they exist in the ground rptting' before you found it??

You may like to veiw what you do this way, but it is not true. Some things will eventualy perish, yet most will still exist well after this generation is gone.

The I am saving history by saving the item just don't cut it. It is a good "excuse" to get out, and detect though, LOL

Again goverment officials, and archeologist are taght that it is all about the money thatcan be made by doing it, that drives the artifact/ relic hunter wether it be a digger, walker 0surface hunter0, and the Mder.
They belive the "Market is what drives what they call Looting.
They don't listen when folks tell them they would do it anyway, even if the could not sell items.

The government and archeologist just don't get it.
It is a great way to escape the daily life, and get some time outdoors, as well as that great chance of the thrill of a find.

It is rarely the market that drives the hunter. Yes some do it for just the money, yet that is the rare one.

Most site disturbance is not done by the profiteer.

Recently on million dollars was given to research the antiquity market to see how it drives looting, Rarely is the looter the one making money out of the market. It is the middle man, and the end auction house or seller that makes the profit.

It would be better spent looking at what is called the looter.

 

[fmerg]

What thy dont mention in the letter is that they know the public discover and report more archaeological find then all the archies combined
here is a comment made by "Current Archaeology magazine"
"A beautiful Iron Age comb unearthed in Tanworth-in-Arden, Warwickshire,by metal-detector enthusiast Russell Peach, is one of the most notable of nearly 60,000 archaeological finds reported to the Portable Antiquities Scheme by members of the public during 2006."

note the 60,000 finds reported by metal detectorist
other notable finds by the hobbyist
Winchester Hoard
the Ringlemere Cup
Anglo-Saxon hoard of Staffordshire
and the list goes on
the Durham County Council state's
Every year thousands of objects of archaeological interest are found mostly by metal detector users.

 

[lostcauses]

What thy dont mention in the letter is that they know the public discover and report more archaeological find then all the archies combined
here is a comment made by "Current Archaeology magazine"
"A beautiful Iron Age comb unearthed in Tanworth-in-Arden, Warwickshire,by metal-detector enthusiast Russell Peach, is one of the most notable of nearly 60,000 archaeological finds reported to the Portable Antiquities Scheme by members of the public during 2006."

note the 60,000 finds reported by metal detectorist
other notable finds by the hobbyist
Winchester Hoard
the Ringlemere Cup
Anglo-Saxon hoard of Staffordshire
and the list goes on
the Durham County Council state's
Every year thousands of objects of archaeological interest are found mostly by metal detector users.

In the US they don't get it. Setting up such a system, does get results.

Other wise it is information and items lost to the archeologist museums etc. This is every day of loss in the US.

 

[lookindown]

HI Folks; BuzzGator and lostcauses to me seem to be on the same basic page I am. I'm not sure about the others but that is ok for the point of what I wanted to talk about here. I have read ALL the replies and answers etc... and I can not help but think to myself that I am listening to, reading and hearing the same exact BANTER I have been listening to for over 39 YEARS folks. Now, let's stop and take a look at a few facts here ok. The first is that I'm wondering how many Archaeologists around today have as much time in the Field as I do I am willing to bet that I have probably forgotten more than these book smart so called Archaeologists have ever learned and that I have more dirt under my finger nails than a lot of them combined. !!! If that sounds like bragging then maybe it could be but to me it just a statement of Fact. I do want to take a second and say that I have absolutely nothing against Education except when that Intelligence is crammed down other peoples throats and in spite of the fact that this is done so against the "Will" of the Majority of We the People's. So I'm wondering what ever happened to "Democracy" You see, Democracy only fails when We the People "FAIL" to use it. Sadly I find this to be the case here. Where the wishes of a few have overcome the Will of the People. The reason this has happened is because for far to many years I have watched Our Rights being trampled upon by the Few because the Majority have FAILED to "exercise" their Rights or express their Freedom of Speech to stand up against these Forms of Tyranny. Sadly, We have no one to blame but ourselves. Ironically it takes situations like this show to galvanize and wake People up to what is really going on about them. So here I say that I hope this serves as that Catalyst that will awaken a Sleeping Giant to the plight they now find themselves entangled in. Folks, the noose is getting tighter every day.!!!!
Here is an interesting tidbit for each of you to think about in regards to your own State ok. It is this :
Here in Massachusetts there are over 50,000 "known" Archaeological Sites just within the Borders of this State alone. Yet there are fewer than 300 "Certified" Archaeologist's in the entire State. 43% are unfunded "Volunteers". That leaves 171 "Certified", "Funded", Non-Volunteer Archaeologists to control,(The issue here), over 50,000 Sites. Gee, I wonder how long it will take them to cover every single Site in a "proper" Archaeological context. Let's just say I'll let you do the Math ok. Every one of us here can apply the exact same Statistic Format to your very own State. If I look at those numbers properly it also tells me that about 171 of "them" are now in "FULL" control of the Entire State in regards to any Rules regarding Metal Detecting.!!! Makes you think about your own State doesn't it Yet We the People sit here and let it happen by arguing with ourselves and also not arguing with the very people YOU Elected.!!!! Is it me or is this twisted or what here Folks, if you want changes and prevent this crap from happening to each of you then STOP blaming and arguing with each other and start arguing with the Politicians who Cram this garbage through to Law and down Our throats every single day. I'll tell you right now that if you don't smarten up and listen to what myself, buzzgator, lostcauses etc.. are saying here then there "WILL" come a day when it will become a Felony just to own a detector. REMEMBER : Don't blame the Archaeologists. They are only doing their job. BLAME YOURSELVES. !!!!
Think about it. !!!! PEACE:RONB

You think the politicians come up with these laws on there own? Ground level discussions like these are how changes get started and your telling us to stop. I think your lost.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

The Archealogical Order of the Universe:

If you want to swing a detector and find an old penny, shell casing, and clean up 1000 trash pull tabs in the process YOU ARE A LOOTER.

If THEY dig up human remains from their resting place (where the deceased's family thought they'd rest in peace until judgement day), cart them off to the university, throw them in a drawer for years, and maybe put them on display for people to oogle at, well... they know better than you.

One is picking up trash, for the most part and the other is knowingly disturbing peoples final rest.

Geeez.

 

[BARKER]

HI Folks; To Bill from Lachine and lostcauses.; First to Bill, : Bill,In answer to your query,

"in my mind unless the site is designated historical it's better to have the items saved for posterity than let them rot "in situ"....what say you?? "

Here is a few other questions ok. How would Archaeologists "EVER" know if 'any" artifact is actually rotting in the ground when they did not even know it was there in the first place ? Why is it that after an MD'er turns in or Reports a find all of a sudden that MD'er is now consider some form of pond scum criminal who has, in their eyes, Stolen or Destroyed this new "found" Artifact or Archaeological "Evidence" from the People After I reply to lostcauses answer I will then answer you ok. In this case I need to look at a few points to come to one point ok.



lostcauses; THANK YOU. !!!!! You hit the nail on the head. !!!! BINGO. !!!!

" It is a great way to escape the daily life, and get some time outdoors, as well as that great chance of the thrill of a find.

It is rarely the market that drives the hunter."


You see folks, the thing that has kept me so enamored with metal detecting for over 39 years has "NEVER" been the quest, dream or allure of making that one big find or score. It has "NEVER" been about me against "them". There has "NEVER" been any malicious intent on my part to destroy anything either. You see, I started when I was 13 years old with an old BFO RadShack detector good for 4" on it's best day that buzzed like hell.!!! BUUUT, I "STILL" kept doing it even when all my friends laughed at me and thought I was nuts. Let me also state that I've always had a good respect for Authority as well So why did I keep doing it For me it was as lostcauses said. PEACE OF MIND.!!!!! To get away from the daily grind. To get some fresh air, to listen to the seagulls etc.. It for me was and still is about all that and more.
Now back in Reality,to answer Bill, I fully believe that England has got it RIGHT. !!! I admire and Respect their "Trove Laws". I agree with them whole heartedly. Reason is that the United States has let this "Culture" of Archaeological Cronyism continue for far to long and it has become to heavily Entrenched in the American Legal System for any one Group to ever undo the damage that's been done to Our Legal Rights, The Animosity between both sides and yes the just plainly arrogant disregard for either sides views by the other will never be undone. That if the English "Trove Law System" were to be Enacted then I believe that a lot of this Animosity towards each side would dissipate to a level where People could actually breath. To me right now this air is just plain PUTRID. !!!! I believe that if these "Trove Laws" are not Enacted that there will not be one single person alive here today that will "ever" see an amiable solution to this overall conundrum.
Now back to Bill : I say that We the People recover these items but to do so in a "RESPONSIBLE" manner. That We the People not only follow but Enforce our very own "Code of Ethics." I believe there is not one single person here or anywhere that owns a detector that does not know what I am talking about here. That if We see someone breaking Our Common Laws then We the People, I feel, do have an OBLIGATION to Report this abhorrent behavior to the proper Authorities or to even stop this person ourselves. Lastly, I do not believe that the Archaeologists have or should ever have the "FINAL" say in these matters. whether their work "IS" important and yes even appreciated or not. In closing for now let me just say that I do not think there is a single person here who does not know what I'm talking about here and I in closing do not desire to lead anyone by the hand. Every one of us "knows" what We the People must do to change this situation. It is up to each of us to actually do it. Start your Writing, Calling etc.. and get the ball rolling. If We, the Treasure Hunting Community as a whole truly want to see this happen then flat out start doing it. The rest is up to each of you. PEACE:RONB Enough Said.

 

[BARKER]

Hi Folks; Now about Politicians. Me, I like to watch Politicians at work. They remind me of the old style Shooting Gallery Bears that when you shot them they'd growl , turn and go the other way. They also remind me of the old wind up Robots where you wound up the key that was stuck in their back, point them in a direction and watch them go. That was fun. I loved shooting those bears. Funny thing is that I still do and I think I'm going to shoot me some here and now.
The Politicians We are all complaining about are just like those shooting gallery bears. Look at any Politician today and watch them go. The Archaeologists wind up their Keys, Point them in a direction and watch them go. Then they keep going until they hit an obstacle and yep you guessed it.They turn around. !!!! When they do the Guess what Folks these same Politicians you have all been talking about are no different. They are only doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 3 - 4 CENTURIES. Thing here is that the Archaeologists are the ones who have been, in this case, winding the Politicians keys and no has opposed them. My question to you Folks is "When are "you" going to START to opposing these Archaeologists by actually start Writing or Calling these Politicians and provide the obstacles they 'need' to run into or be 'hit' by in order to cause them to growl, turn around and head in the opposite direction from that which the Archaeologists have pointed them in for so long "unopposed" ? Why don't each of you become the KEY turner by using the exact same tactics that the Archaeologists have been using for so long I dare say that if any of you do not take some sort of actual action either large or small then you in turn must by proxy for ever hold your peace. I await your replies. Thank you. Now I'm going to go watch Jeff Dunham. PEACE:RONB










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[bill from lachine]

Folks,

The Treasure Trove laws in the UK also know as PAS (Portable Antiquities Scheme) appears on the surface as being an option to be considered whether for the U.S. or Canada situation.

Unfortunately for the most part our laws seem to be a patchwork of Federal, State or Provincial in the case of Canada as well as municipal rules and regulations.

This is a very crude summary of how it applies....any finds over a certain number of years with silver or gold content have to be declared to the local coroner or FLO (finds liaison officer) within a certain time frame believe it's 14 days it also applies to hoards be it coins, axeheads, etc....

If the finds are declared treasure and given a value evaluation and if any museum comes forward and decides to buy it for their collection....the finder and landowner split the finder's fee 50/50.

If you go to the PAS website you can review the rules in greater detail.

That said I recently had a bit of a dust up with a site who will go unnamed as appears they have frictions over there even with the detecting community and the archeologists....it's a bit of a sad situation actually because the archeologists don't have the staff and funding to retrieve artifacts from the protected sites...let alone what gets found in plowed fields and other sites at risk of loosing the artifacts for posterity.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[BARKER]

HI Bill; Yep, you walked right into the hornets nest face first. I'm surprised your still breathing. Anyway, I support the Frame Work of the PAS "Trove Laws" and I believe that these Laws can be adapted to the US and Canada and just about anywhere else. Thing here is that as I said, the "ONLY" way these Laws would be of any good to the Metal Detecting Community is if "We" the People actually give viable, feasible input along the ENTIRE Process of their implementation. That if We sit idle then guess what, "WE"RE SCREWED." !!!!!! It will only be with ACTIVE participation on Our part that these ideals will come to a favorable conclusion.

To lostcauses; you mentioned that the achies own schtik they use in dealing with Politicians is to use the NON renewable argument. My question here is kind of two fold. First is that as I said before, "How can something be NON renewable if no one knew it existed in the first place The second part here is, "How many of us have actually sat and actually Written to, ta;ked to or even Called these Politicians A Politician can only use the information they have in front of them. If We the People are NOT in front of them then how are they going to ever know the other side of the coin so to speak?
Answer : They Can't !!!! PERIOD. So I guess here that I have made my points in regards to these situations. As far as that show goes I have a strange feeling that it will be shown for the farse it really is. Thing is that just as the arches use their "Education" to foist this stuff on people We here "NEED" to "EDUCATE" the People ourselves as well. If not I dare say that the people will become just as blinded and numbed out as these Politicians are. Think about Folks. PEACE:RONB

 

[diggummup]

Folks,
The Treasure Trove laws in the UK also know as PAS (Portable Antiquities Scheme) appears on the surface as being an option to be considered whether for the U.S. or Canada situation.
Unfortunately for the most part our laws seem to be a patchwork of Federal, State or Provincial in the case of Canada as well as municipal rules and regulations.
This is a very crude summary of how it applies....any finds over a certain number of years with silver or gold content have to be declared to the local coroner or FLO (finds liaison officer) within a certain time frame believe it's 14 days it also applies to hoards be it coins, axeheads, etc....
If the finds are declared treasure and given a value evaluation and if any museum comes forward and decides to buy it for their collection....the finder and landowner split the finder's fee 50/50.
If you go to the PAS website you can review the rules in greater detail.
That said I recently had a bit of a dust up with a site who will go unnamed as appears they have frictions over there even with the detecting community and the archeologists....it's a bit of a sad situation actually because the archeologists don't have the staff and funding to retrieve artifacts from the protected sites...let alone what gets found in plowed fields and other sites at risk of loosing the artifacts for posterity.
Regards + HH
Bill

I mentioned the "Treasure Act" (which is what you are referring to), in another thread and someone from Great Britian took it the wrong way. mistakenly thinking I was putting it down. I think it's a good thing and would be all for it in this country versus the "patchwork" of federal, state, county, city, township, municipality, parrish, etc. etc. laws and regulations that they have now. As far as the show goes and the petition against looting, all I can say is that as stupid as fric and frac are portrayed on there, they are not breaking any laws much less looting. Anytime something that is less than mainstream hits the airwaves regardless of what it is, it will bring out the kooks and radicals and fanatics. It's human nature, nothing will ever change that. Just be glad we do live in America and not Spain or Portugal, because it would be much worse.

On a totally unrelated topic-
Am I the only one who can't see muddyhandz username only this-


REPORT POST/ nominate for banner

 

[bill from lachine]

RonB,

I've got skin like an alligator.....and have had duels which much better opponents....lol.

Thanks for your input.

Regards + HH

Bill

HI Bill; Yep, you walked right into the hornets nest face first. I'm surprised your still breathing. Anyway, I support the Frame Work of the PAS "Trove Laws" and I believe that these Laws can be adapted to the US and Canada and just about anywhere else. Thing here is that as I said, the "ONLY" way these Laws would be of any good to the Metal Detecting Community is if "We" the People actually give viable, feasible input along the ENTIRE Process of their implementation. That if We sit idle then guess what, "WE"RE SCREWED." !!!!!! It will only be with ACTIVE participation on Our part that these ideals will come to a favorable conclusion.

To lostcauses; you mentioned that the achies own schtik they use in dealing with Politicians is to use the NON renewable argument. My question here is kind of two fold. First is that as I said before, "How can something be NON renewable if no one knew it existed in the first place The second part here is, "How many of us have actually sat and actually Written to, ta;ked to or even Called these Politicians A Politician can only use the information they have in front of them. If We the People are NOT in front of them then how are they going to ever know the other side of the coin so to speak?
Answer : They Can't !!!! PERIOD. So I guess here that I have made my points in regards to these situations. As far as that show goes I have a strange feeling that it will be shown for the farse it really is. Thing is that just as the arches use their "Education" to foist this stuff on people We here "NEED" to "EDUCATE" the People ourselves as well. If not I dare say that the people will become just as blinded and numbed out as these Politicians are. Think about Folks. PEACE:RONB

 

[BARKER]

Hi Bill; You met the whole swamp there. !!! Thing is Don't ever epect to recieve a different response from them. They are simply going by the same dogma they have been following for years. "That" will not change. The thing thay can change isour approach to it. I belive I've covered how to start doing so above. I must go offfline for now. Busy ok. but I'll be back on tomorrow night ok.
Here's a suggestion guys : Cpntact the Producers and the TV station and "TELL" thenm exactly what We think. I bet if We do then I don't think that Show will last long at all ok. Just a thought. !!! PEACE:RONB

 

[bill from lachine]

Folks,

Just for illustration purposes the type of finds that I find interesting is not about money or value, etc.....

One of my favorite finds is a native style pendant....circa 1900 +/- .....no one can give me a specific id on it as they've never seen anything comparable before....that would probably get tossed in a box if handed off to a museum.

To me it's priceless....possibly from a native headdress because the site where it was found was an amusement park at the turn of the century.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[lookindown]

Folks,

The Treasure Trove laws in the UK also know as PAS (Portable Antiquities Scheme) appears on the surface as being an option to be considered whether for the U.S. or Canada situation.

Unfortunately for the most part our laws seem to be a patchwork of Federal, State or Provincial in the case of Canada as well as municipal rules and regulations.

This is a very crude summary of how it applies....any finds over a certain number of years with silver or gold content have to be declared to the local coroner or FLO (finds liaison officer) within a certain time frame believe it's 14 days it also applies to hoards be it coins, axeheads, etc....

If the finds are declared treasure and given a value evaluation and if any museum comes forward and decides to buy it for their collection....the finder and landowner split the finder's fee 50/50.

If you go to the PAS website you can review the rules in greater detail.

That said I recently had a bit of a dust up with a site who will go unnamed as appears they have frictions over there even with the detecting community and the archeologists....it's a bit of a sad situation actually because the archeologists don't have the staff and funding to retrieve artifacts from the protected sites...let alone what gets found in plowed fields and other sites at risk of loosing the artifacts for posterity.

Regards + HH

Bill

In the UK, can you detect on public property, like parks, city property, etc.?

 

[bill from lachine]

Lookindown,

Not sure but believe that the public parks in the UK may be off limits.

Most of the detectorists I know of in the UK tend to concentrate on plowed field and report anything of importance to the FLO (finds liaison officer) or coroner as the case may be.

Regards + HH

Bill

 

[Mzjavert]

If you don't want people on these sites, do it the American way. Buy the land and put up all the No Trespassing signs you want.

 

[kuger]

That's what I thought when I saw that show. Stand by, we are about to be screwed. I wouldn't be a bit surprised it they didn't try to apply the "eminent domain" to private land. After all, they, the archies, sure figure what they do is for the public good, and who would have ever thought they would force sale of private property only to be turned over to another private party because that developer might pay more money in taxes. Every thing we did as a family when I was a teenager and younger, that was wholesome and good, is now illegal, and the stuff that we thought was perversion is now good. Everything is screwed up. We used to ask the Forest Ranger where the best place was to find arrow heads, and he'd tell you, even draw a map and wish "good luck." Now you can't hardly pick up a rock in the forest, and for God's sake, don't chop up a down a dead tree for camp fire wood, and that's a fact, because bugs live in it. Watch out for the owl, endangered slug, shore nesting bird, and you by God better let a wolf eat your pets or livestock. You shoot a wolf and they'll spend more money trying to figure out who did it than they would to find a m------lem terrorist. If I used the word it probably would have been chopped, because we can't offend anyone, but I think you get what I'm trying to say. That's just my rant. Thanks for letting me get it off of my chest.

words that speak to my heart!!!!

 

[kuger]

I just love it when people respond without having a clue what they're talking about.
It's called cut and paste. He didn't write the letter.
He's just posting it for us to see that there's repercussions already from one show.
Try looking into it a little deeper next time.

Thanks, Muddyhanz, you read my intentions quite well.

As for archaeologists being against MDers... well, for me is quite the opposite. Whenever I can, I call on a team of friends of mine and they will gadly sweep an entire field for me, for free. They get the fun, I get the data, and we can share both knowledge and the thrill of finding artefacts.

Yes, the finds cannot be kept by the finder, nor can they sell or barter them. But, they will go to a museum for everyone to enjoy.

Let me point you an official project, being done in Portugal entirely by amateur MDs: they are operating in an area that was landfilled with dredged material from the bottom of a river that runs through territories that are inhabited since pre-historic times, having Roman, Islamic, Medieval and Modern stuff as well. So, we are talking about artifacts that were depositioned, carried off later by the river, dredeged in the 70's and then landfilled. Do they have any archaeological significance? Almost nil, since they carry only the intrinsic value of the artefact, all context being long gone.

So, why not have a bunch of MDs have a go at it? They do it - and have almost a full museum to show for.

http://translate.google.com/transla.../index.php?idType=3&idMenu=4&idPage=8&act=url

I respect your opinion,and stance on the valuable source that us detectorists provide,however VERY seldom are any of the fruits,of any Archy dig seen in any museums here in the States.Most are donated from families or detectorists.Also 99% of all the books,to ID relics and items are written by detectorists.Where are are any by Archies?

 

[lookindown]

Lookindown,

Not sure but believe that the public parks in the UK may be off limits.

Most of the detectorists I know of in the UK tend to concentrate on plowed field and report anything of importance to the FLO (finds liaison officer) or coroner as the case may be.

Regards + HH

Bill

Sounds like a plowed field is the only place they can hunt. Uk can keep their laws. US still has a lot of public, state owned land we can hunt on.

 

[BARKER]

Hi lookindown; your partially right here ok. Even if they could not detect on Public Parks etc... That is not the basis of what was suggested here. It was suggested that We use the Trove Laws as a "TEMPLATE" to be adapted for use by those of us here in "America." Also the main reason they don't dig in local Parks from what I have gathered from my own personal experiences there is that the Plowed Fields offer a much greater array of finds and somewhat easier digging. That it really has "nothing" to do with NOT being able to detect local Parks ok. Just a bit of clarity ok. PEACE:RONB