MORE AND BEYOND OSSY
Bronze Member
I thought I'd add a Spanish flavor to the forum
Ossy
Interesting Article......
- Thread starter GOHO
- Start date
Ossy
Darren in NC
Silver Member
- Apr 1, 2004
- 2,780
- 1,574
- Detector(s) used
- Tesoro Sand Shark, Homebuilt pulse loop
- Primary Interest:
- Shipwrecks
Hello old friend. I wondered when I'd hear from you on this :-)
The dilemma in threads like this is that each side is going to argue their case to the extreme. Odyssey has their case as does the legal reps for Spain. I understand that and take it into account while reading. My admiration for a good argument or rebuttal doesn't have to mean that I agree with everything stated within. I simply enjoy the overall rationale presented. Having said that, my actual belief in this case is that both sides have good arguments. And both have agendas that cloud the issues. I disagree with Odyssey's handling of this whole affair. That doesn't mean I am pro-Spain. I also believe there is a much greater agenda at stake here than cultural patrimony from Spain's side. That doesn't put me square in the middle of Odyssey's camp either. And I agree much of Spain's agenda is very malignant and subversive from US influences.
Ditto my last line. There is a twisting of hundreds of years of precedent in order to push a new agenda. And this agenda comes primarily from US arrogance found in the need to control anyone profiting from what used to be an expected process of returning lost goods to commerce. It's about control of the elite now and they have found their prey. Even documentation offered on websites or published by archaeologists who have worked with salvors cannot be viewed as reliable...even if it has educated the public beyond the "professional" publications. I suspect Goold is simply a pawn, not a perpetrator, of a whole body of US agenda-makers seeking to take their cause worldwide. This body ignores historical precedent and creates new laws to match their agenda. Meanwhile you and AUVnav and many others simply say, "times change" and accept the new world order (current law as it is put into place). I'm still not ready for acceptance. This article speaks to my lack of readiness, thus my appreciation for it.
I can't argue here. As I stated, I don't applaud them at all in the way they handled this affair. I suspect Odyssey would do things differently now - hindsight is always 20/20.
I totally agree.
It would be nice if both sides on this forum could simply stop being so defensive and speak without extremes. Odyssey and Spain/US are both right in ways...and both very wrong. Welcome to the real world, not the courtroom extremes.
I still like the article's overall argument :-)
The dilemma in threads like this is that each side is going to argue their case to the extreme. Odyssey has their case as does the legal reps for Spain. I understand that and take it into account while reading. My admiration for a good argument or rebuttal doesn't have to mean that I agree with everything stated within. I simply enjoy the overall rationale presented. Having said that, my actual belief in this case is that both sides have good arguments. And both have agendas that cloud the issues. I disagree with Odyssey's handling of this whole affair. That doesn't mean I am pro-Spain. I also believe there is a much greater agenda at stake here than cultural patrimony from Spain's side. That doesn't put me square in the middle of Odyssey's camp either. And I agree much of Spain's agenda is very malignant and subversive from US influences.
Ditto my last line. There is a twisting of hundreds of years of precedent in order to push a new agenda. And this agenda comes primarily from US arrogance found in the need to control anyone profiting from what used to be an expected process of returning lost goods to commerce. It's about control of the elite now and they have found their prey. Even documentation offered on websites or published by archaeologists who have worked with salvors cannot be viewed as reliable...even if it has educated the public beyond the "professional" publications. I suspect Goold is simply a pawn, not a perpetrator, of a whole body of US agenda-makers seeking to take their cause worldwide. This body ignores historical precedent and creates new laws to match their agenda. Meanwhile you and AUVnav and many others simply say, "times change" and accept the new world order (current law as it is put into place). I'm still not ready for acceptance. This article speaks to my lack of readiness, thus my appreciation for it.
I can't argue here. As I stated, I don't applaud them at all in the way they handled this affair. I suspect Odyssey would do things differently now - hindsight is always 20/20.
I totally agree.
It would be nice if both sides on this forum could simply stop being so defensive and speak without extremes. Odyssey and Spain/US are both right in ways...and both very wrong. Welcome to the real world, not the courtroom extremes.
I still like the article's overall argument :-)
Darren,
Thank you for your rational thoughts and opinions. It is good to see the background of where you are coming from. I have been directly and indirectly involved in underwater recovery for some time. The reality is, the pendulum swings back and forth, sometimes in radical moves as a result of a certain event.
The swings are detrimental for all involved, and the event can be a many headed beast. Right now, as a result, the regulatory pendulum is swinging far to the right, getting to near shutdown of any recovery. I fear that its not over, from several perspectives.
Environmental rules affect everyone, with near shore and shelf areas getting extreme exposure to regulations right now, and I feel will only get worse. With more discoveries of biologics offshore, and depletion of fish stock, large areas will likely be shut down in the very near future. This is an issue for treasure hunting and archeaology.
Spain is now hypervigilant. Spain currently has its military and several companies mapping the seafloor to the EEZ, and appears ready to enforce its sovereign rights worldwide. Again, this should be of great concern to any recovery operation, past, present and future. We are seeing art and other cultural material being re-patriated at unprecedented rates. The Greeks are seeking the return of the Elgin Marbles, and other artefacts from museums worldwide, and are very successful. It does not matter if we agree of not, that is what is currently happening. That is the foundation of my comment in regards to the recovery activities of the East Coast, Spain may be more than happy to let everyone keep searching, and even recovering, but as we have seen, it may be gratis and on its way back to Spain, which has now been tested all the way to the US Supreme Court.
Some small attempts have been made, albiet very small, but with UNESCO determination of wrecks, at least leaves some recent ones for recovery.
Underwater archeaology, other than shallow diveable depths, just cannot get past many of the issues at this time, and so the gap between standard archaeological practice and treasure hunting will remain far apart until the sides can actually get together and agree on principles.
Thank you for your rational thoughts and opinions. It is good to see the background of where you are coming from. I have been directly and indirectly involved in underwater recovery for some time. The reality is, the pendulum swings back and forth, sometimes in radical moves as a result of a certain event.
The swings are detrimental for all involved, and the event can be a many headed beast. Right now, as a result, the regulatory pendulum is swinging far to the right, getting to near shutdown of any recovery. I fear that its not over, from several perspectives.
Environmental rules affect everyone, with near shore and shelf areas getting extreme exposure to regulations right now, and I feel will only get worse. With more discoveries of biologics offshore, and depletion of fish stock, large areas will likely be shut down in the very near future. This is an issue for treasure hunting and archeaology.
Spain is now hypervigilant. Spain currently has its military and several companies mapping the seafloor to the EEZ, and appears ready to enforce its sovereign rights worldwide. Again, this should be of great concern to any recovery operation, past, present and future. We are seeing art and other cultural material being re-patriated at unprecedented rates. The Greeks are seeking the return of the Elgin Marbles, and other artefacts from museums worldwide, and are very successful. It does not matter if we agree of not, that is what is currently happening. That is the foundation of my comment in regards to the recovery activities of the East Coast, Spain may be more than happy to let everyone keep searching, and even recovering, but as we have seen, it may be gratis and on its way back to Spain, which has now been tested all the way to the US Supreme Court.
Some small attempts have been made, albiet very small, but with UNESCO determination of wrecks, at least leaves some recent ones for recovery.
Underwater archeaology, other than shallow diveable depths, just cannot get past many of the issues at this time, and so the gap between standard archaeological practice and treasure hunting will remain far apart until the sides can actually get together and agree on principles.
