Ireland : Metal detecting

[tricasgood]

Have you contacted Metal Detectors Ireland to ask them about this ? What metal detectors are you referring to that were prosecuted ? The only prosecution that I have read of in recent years was a father and son who were prosecuted for possessing Artefacts but they were not prosecuted for possession of their metal detectors.? I have also read a post by one of the sons of the actual facts of the case which differ completely from the scaremongering newspaper article which included an interview with Mr Kelly.

Also what made you contact the museum to ask for their advice instead of the police ? Archaeologists seem to think that a member of the general public using a metal detector is akin to handing a scalpel to a lay person and allowing them to operate! (Which in my opinion is extremely arrogant!) With all due respect to Mr Kelly he seems to be doing exactly what they don't want other people to do i.e. someone elses job! He is interpreting a very unclear law which he is not qualified to do as he is neither solicitor nor judge.

By the way I do not see anywhere in the law where it say that you have to give your address to Mr Kelly or that you have to fill out "statutory forms", you are of course required to hand over your finds but sure can't you just post them and include some details on where they were found ? I have read on other forums of people meeting a representative of the museum to hand over their finds and instead of being met with some interest in where they found the objects they were met with a stony faced curate and a huge lecture on the illegality of metal detectors.

I personally cannot understand the museums stance on this, they seem to enjoy trying to frighten the bejasus out of people into not using metal detectors with their threats of the police and jail terms. Instead of trying to educate hobbyists on the importance of handing over any accidental finds they frighten them into being too afraid to hand them over at all. It also says on the National Museum website that if you find an object in a legitimate manner you are paid finder’s reward, well the "legitimate" part means that if you find it with a metal detector you get squat! Not exactly encouraging, now is it ?? They also seem to think it better that the next Ardagh Hoard remain buried forever or chewed up by a plough rather than have someone find it with a metal detector. Go figure!

Maybe every hobbyist out there should start bombarding the museum with every piece of junk they find.. Just in case it's an artefact! You wouldn't want to end up in prison for keeping some Viking nose ring that you thought was from a beer can, now would you!

Hello!!

I have contacted Ron, and told him about my troubles with National Museum. But he never called me back! I'm a member of IMDAI but it doesn't change anything. I was warned few times by archaeologists, that use of Metal Detector without permission and without excavation permission is illegal in Ireland. Eventually Eamon Kelly and Nessa O'Connor came to my house and revised all the items I have found. We had a really productive time followed by logical explanations in accordance to the law. I did a research myself on the top of that and I'm pretty sure that IMDAI isn't formal body approved by any authority in Ireland at all. They can sell Metal Detecting devices as the vendors and they won't be prosecuted for it, but a person purchasing and using a metal detector is a "criminal". You can state in your websites that you are not detecting for the profit and not to discover archaeological objects but this doesn't change anything. You may hear some metal under the surface on your device, but you are not allowed to dig it up without the license and permission. Every object located under the sand, dirt, or any surface has it's own history and the background. I found lot of objects which I had to hand in to National Museum to avoid prosecution. You are thinking that IMDAI tells you something that sounds reasonable but still a possession of a Metal Detecting device is illegal no matter what you will do and what you will say. That's the law and there's nothing we can do about it I'm afraid. I lost me money purchasing such device from IMDAI along with the "license" which I can literally wipe me arse with. You must be aware that if you will be stopped by a Garda officer on the beach, your device might be confiscated, Garda officer might launch a case against you and he will win - that's the law and there is nothing we can do about it!!

 

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[Tom_in_CA]

Hello!!

I have contacted Ron, and told him about my troubles with National Museum. But he never called me back! I'm a member of IMDAI but it doesn't change anything. I was warned few times by archaeologists, that use of Metal Detector without permission and without excavation permission is illegal in Ireland. Eventually Eamon Kelly and Nessa O'Connor came to my house and revised all the items I have found. We had really productive time fulfilled with logic explanations with accordance to the law and Constitution. I did a research myself on the top of that and I'm pretty sure that IMDAI isn't formal body approved by any law in Ireland at all. They can sell Metal Detecting devices as the vendors and they won't be prosecuted, but the person purchasing and using a metal detector becomes a criminal. You can state in your websites that you are not detecting for the profit and not to discover the archaeological objects but this doesn't change anything. You may sound some metal under the surface, but you are not allowed to dig it up without licence and permission. Every object located under the sand, dirt, or any surface has it's own history and the background. I found lots of objects which I had to hand in to National Museum to avoid prosecution. You are thinking that IMDAI tells you something that sounds reasonable but still possession of a Metal Detecting device is illegal no matter what you will do and what you will say. That's the law and there's nothing we can do about it I'm afraid. I lost me money purchasing such device from IMDAI along with the "licence" which I can literally wipe me arse with. You must be aware that if you will be stopped by a Garda officer on the beach, your device will be confiscated, Garda officer will start case against you and he will win - that's the law and we can do nothing about it!!

tricasgood, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly: You went to archaeological museum people there in Ireland, to ask "is metal deteting ok?" and they told you "no" ? (and you need "licenses" and so forth...)

Well if I've got the condensed version of that right, let me save you some time: SO TOO WOULD THE SAME ANSWER be forthcoming from archies in a LOT of countries (not just Ireland). I mean, I bet I could get the same answer from some "purist" archie types here in the USA, if I asked enough of them. And, heck, they might even have some "scary sounding laws they could cite to back themselves up (arpa, etc...), BUT GO FIGURE, they hate md'rs, so what did you EXPECT them when asking an archie?

I mean, that would be a little like asking an animal rights wacko this question: "Hi. Can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into the store to buy a 6-pack?". They would screech "nnneeeeooohh! The bunny could suffocate in the hot sun! You can be arrested for animal cruelty!! You can be jailed and your car confiscated!" blah blah blah But SERIOUSLY now, does anyone really care if you left your bunny in the car for a minute un-attended except some wacko animal rights person? No. Of course not. So just as I put "little stock" in their answer, so too do I put little stock into what some archies are going to claim that cultural heritage type stuff means.

Oh sure, I'm not saying to tromp on sensitive archaeological sites, or waltz over archie's beach blankets at an archie convention with your detector. I mean, c'mon, a little discretion goes a long way.

Seems to me if you hunt farmers fields with permission (not public land) and since ... afterall ... you're only helping that farmer find the gold ring he lost yesterday. And any nuisance coins that got in your way were "only modern ones" anyhow. Right?

 

[tricasgood]

tricasgood, let me see if I'm understanding you correctly: You went to archaeological museum people there in Ireland, to ask "is metal deteting ok?" and they told you "no" ? (and you need "licenses" and so forth...)

Well if I've got the condensed version of that right, let me save you some time: SO TOO WOULD THE SAME ANSWER be forthcoming from archies in a LOT of countries (not just Ireland). I mean, I bet I could get the same answer from some "purist" archie types here in the USA, if I asked enough of them. And, heck, they might even have some "scary sounding laws they could cite to back themselves up (arpa, etc...), BUT GO FIGURE, they hate md'rs, so what did you EXPECT them when asking an archie?

I mean, that would be a little like asking an animal rights wacko this question: "Hi. Can I leave my pet bunny in the car while I run into the store to buy a 6-pack?". They would screech "nnneeeeooohh! The bunny could suffocate in the hot sun! You can be arrested for animal cruelty!! You can be jailed and your car confiscated!" blah blah blah But SERIOUSLY now, does anyone really care if you left your bunny in the car for a minute un-attended except some wacko animal rights person? No. Of course not. So just as I put "little stock" in their answer, so too do I put little stock into what some archies are going to claim that cultural heritage type stuff means.

Oh sure, I'm not saying to tromp on sensitive archaeological sites, or waltz over archie's beach blankets at an archie convention with your detector. I mean, c'mon, a little discretion goes a long way.

Seems to me if you hunt farmers fields with permission (not public land) and since ... afterall ... you're only helping that farmer find the gold ring he lost yesterday. And any nuisance coins that got in your way were "only modern ones" anyhow. Right?

Well, there's some misunderstanding. I didn't go to National Museum asking if metal detecting is ok cos it would be totally ******ed. First of all all my videos posted on youtube about metal detecting were reported, someone reported my posts on Facebook as well and in this environment another thing happened at the same time. Few metal detectorists were prosecuted in East Cork and they lost their case. I asked NM about it from a perspective of a Metal Detectorist who respects National Monuments and Irish Heritage. You have made it very trivial and shallow and this looked completely different than your have present it. Technically I got a few responses from local solicitors and they confirm on what the National Museum is saying about Metal Detecting in Ireland. Those are as follows:

"The Law on Metal Detecting in Ireland
The National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 provide for the protection of the archaeological heritage of Ireland (portable and built heritage) with the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 dealing specifically with the use of metal detecting devices.

• Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.

• The term ‘archaeological object’ is a legal one that has a wide meaning and may include lost or concealed cultural objects, including common objects such as coins and objects of relatively modern date including 20th century material.

(This latter point with regard to dating of archaeological objects has been ruled upon in a High Court Judicial Review - Record No 2001 579JR, between S. Gregg Bemis (Applicant) and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Ireland and the Attorney General (Respondents). Judgement of Mr Justice Herbert delivered the 17th day of June, 2005).

• If you find an archaeological object you must report it the National Museum of Ireland or to a Designated County Museum within 96 hours.

• Failure to report such a discovery is an offense.

• Where a person reports the finding of an archaeological object he shall be furnished with a prescribed form and in reporting the find he shall state his name and address, the nature and character of the object found, and a description of the location of the place where the object was found.

• It is illegal to be in possession of an unreported archaeological object or to sell or otherwise dispose of such an object.

• Archaeological objects found in Ireland are State property.

• Finders who have found archaeological objects in a legitimate manner are paid finder’s rewards.

• It is public policy not to issue metal detecting consents other than in the context of licensed archaeological excavations or investigations being undertaken under the direction of a professional archaeologist.

• Unlicensed detectorists who engage in general searches for archaeological objects run the risk of prosecution and the law provides for heavy fines and / or imprisonment of offenders. A number of successful prosecutions have been taken against individuals who have been found to have contravened this legislation.

• Unauthorised devices found on or in the vicinity of certain monuments may be seized and detained by a member of An Garda Síochána pending prosecution by the State.

• The 1994 act saw an increase in imprisonment to 5 years on indictment and the maximum fine allowed is €63,500.

• It has been suggested on some occasions that metal detector searches for archaeological objects on beaches may be undertaken without a consent under the terms of the National Monuments Acts. This is not the case and In fact, such areas are particularly sensitive archaeologically as they can often be locations of important material relating to kitchen middens, burials, settlements and ship wrecks. At least one successful prosecution has been obtained against a person engaged in searching a beach with the aid of a metal detector.

The National Monuments Act, 1930

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1954.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 2004"

The Law says very clearly that a person can use a metal detecting device under the license only. So you have to be granted permission from NM if you are working on archaeological site only or if you are a quantity surveyor and are looking for the pipes buried under the footpath or elsewhere. Additionally you need a permission to excavate - simplifying it to dig out the stuff that you have detected. If you were spotted on the beach walking with metal detector by the Gardai and they were aware of the law about metal detecting, your device is being confiscated and you are being prosecuted and your "licence" given by IMDAI won't cover you and your activities neither. It was my beloved hobby but now I'm kind of suspended in limbo trying to digest all this bitter taste of returning everything I found and hanging my device on the wall of my shed waiting for the metal detecting trip to Russia or Lithuania to happen. In a mean time I'm trying to understand the Law and all those mechanisms behind it, prohibiting us from performing all of those wonderful activities. Good Luck.

 

[spudkin100]

Have you contacted Metal Detectors Ireland to ask them about this ? What metal detectors are you referring to that were prosecuted ? The only prosecution that I have read of in recent years was a father and son who were prosecuted for possessing Artefacts but they were not prosecuted for possession of their metal detectors.? I have also read a post by one of the sons of the actual facts of the case which differ completely from the scaremongering newspaper article which included an interview with Mr Kelly.

Also what made you contact the museum to ask for their advice instead of the police ? Archaeologists seem to think that a member of the general public using a metal detector is akin to handing a scalpel to a lay person and allowing them to operate! (Which in my opinion is extremely arrogant!) With all due respect to Mr Kelly he seems to be doing exactly what they don't want other people to do i.e. someone elses job! He is interpreting a very unclear law which he is not qualified to do as he is neither solicitor nor judge.

By the way I do not see anywhere in the law where it say that you have to give your address to Mr Kelly or that you have to fill out "statutory forms", you are of course required to hand over your finds but sure can't you just post them and include some details on where they were found ? I have read on other forums of people meeting a representative of the museum to hand over their finds and instead of being met with some interest in where they found the objects they were met with a stony faced curate and a huge lecture on the illegality of metal detectors.

I personally cannot understand the museums stance on this, they seem to enjoy trying to frighten the bejasus out of people into not using metal detectors with their threats of the police and jail terms. Instead of trying to educate hobbyists on the importance of handing over any accidental finds they frighten them into being too afraid to hand them over at all. It also says on the National Museum website that if you find an object in a legitimate manner you are paid finder’s reward, well the "legitimate" part means that if you find it with a metal detector you get squat! Not exactly encouraging, now is it ?? They also seem to think it better that the next Ardagh Hoard remain buried forever or chewed up by a plough rather than have someone find it with a metal detector. Go figure!

Maybe every hobbyist out there should start bombarding the museum with every piece of junk they find.. Just in case it's an artefact! You wouldn't want to end up in prison for keeping some Viking nose ring that you thought was from a beer can, now would you![/QU

 

[spudkin100]

those people in the national history museum are impossible to deal with i had a similar experience years ago.no point debating with them they have tunnel vision and are totally inflexible to deal with.because of this i believe people in ireland have found stuff that may be of interest to them but the people that found relics will not get in touch with the museum because of fear of prosecution.

 

[jamiekeefer]

Well, there's some misunderstanding. I didn't go to National Museum asking if metal detecting is ok cos it would be totally ******ed. First of all all my videos posted on youtube about metal detecting were reported, someone reported my posts on Facebook as well and in this environment another thing happened at the same time. Few metal detectorists were prosecuted in East Cork and they lost their case. I asked NM about how it looks from the perspective as metal detectorist who respects all the National Monuments and does it in a respectful manner. You have made it very trivial and shallow and this looked completely different than your version of understanding it. Technically I got few responses from local solicitors and they cover the facts that National Museum is presenting about Metal Detecting in Ireland. Those are as follows:

"The Law on Metal Detecting in Ireland
The National Monuments Acts 1930 to 2004 provide for the protection of the archaeological heritage of Ireland (portable and built heritage) with the National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987 dealing specifically with the use of metal detecting devices.

• Other than under licence, it is illegal to use a metal detecting device to search for archaeological objects in Ireland, both on land and underwater.

• The term ‘archaeological object’ is a legal one that has a wide meaning and may include lost or concealed cultural objects, including common objects such as coins and objects of relatively modern date including 20th century material.

(This latter point with regard to dating of archaeological objects has been ruled upon in a High Court Judicial Review - Record No 2001 579JR, between S. Gregg Bemis (Applicant) and the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, Ireland and the Attorney General (Respondents). Judgement of Mr Justice Herbert delivered the 17th day of June, 2005).

• If you find an archaeological object you must report it the National Museum of Ireland or to a Designated County Museum within 96 hours.

• Failure to report such a discovery is an offense.

• Where a person reports the finding of an archaeological object he shall be furnished with a prescribed form and in reporting the find he shall state his name and address, the nature and character of the object found, and a description of the location of the place where the object was found.

• It is illegal to be in possession of an unreported archaeological object or to sell or otherwise dispose of such an object.

• Archaeological objects found in Ireland are State property.

• Finders who have found archaeological objects in a legitimate manner are paid finder’s rewards.

• It is public policy not to issue metal detecting consents other than in the context of licensed archaeological excavations or investigations being undertaken under the direction of a professional archaeologist.

• Unlicensed detectorists who engage in general searches for archaeological objects run the risk of prosecution and the law provides for heavy fines and / or imprisonment of offenders. A number of successful prosecutions have been taken against individuals who have been found to have contravened this legislation.

• Unauthorised devices found on or in the vicinity of certain monuments may be seized and detained by a member of An Garda Síochána pending prosecution by the State.

• The 1994 act saw an increase in imprisonment to 5 years on indictment and the maximum fine allowed is €63,500.

• It has been suggested on some occasions that metal detector searches for archaeological objects on beaches may be undertaken without a consent under the terms of the National Monuments Acts. This is not the case and In fact, such areas are particularly sensitive archaeologically as they can often be locations of important material relating to kitchen middens, burials, settlements and ship wrecks. At least one successful prosecution has been obtained against a person engaged in searching a beach with the aid of a metal detector.

The National Monuments Act, 1930

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1954.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1987.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 1994.

The National Monuments (Amendment) Act, 2004"

The Law says very clearly that a person can use a metal detecting device under the licence only. So you have to be granted permission from NM if you are working on archaeological site only or if you are quantity surveyor and are looking for the pipes buried under the footpath or elsewhere. Additionally you need a permission to excavate - simplifying it to dig out the stuff that you have detected. If you were spotted on the beach walking with metal detector by the Gardas and they were aware of the law about metal detecting, your device is being confiscated and you are being prosecuted and your "licence" given by IMDAI won't cover you and what you are doing at all. It was my beloved hobby but now I'm kind of suspended in limbo trying to digest all this bitter taste of returning everything I found and hanging my device on the wall of my shed waiting for the metal detecting trip to Russia or Lithuania to happen. In a mean time I'm trying to understand the Law and all those mechanisms behind it, prohibiting us to perform all those wonderful activities. Good Luck.

I think I will leave my detector home...terrible since i am going to be on the beach for 10 days in caherdaniel. Would have liked to hunt the beaches at least.

 

[spudkin100]

I was told once you are safe if you detect on beach in between low and high tide area.

hello kajo
where in ireland are you .

 

[flyingspud]

Hi first time poster here. Have owned a MD for some years to use on my own property, but haven't found anything of value.

The law in its amended form treats any buried item, even 20th cent material as of being of 'archeological' interest. This is clearly ludicrous, technically a rusty shock absorber from a Ford Anglia circa 1959 is an 'archeological' object.
Complete scattergun drafting by some pen pushing civil servant at the behest of the National Museum no doubt.

 

[Mr.T]

good luck dfx in trying to promote responsible mding . i tried it, i even had the backing of the irish farmers association but when i rang the national museum i hit a brick wall, they did post me out a manuscript of the law. if you can find a loophole please let me know, i am still determind to set up some kind of club to promote the hobby

Tell them you are looking for your keys! ie a recently dropped item.. Don't search on a historical monument. On private property tell them to f### off once you have permission. Beachs are outside the law!

And the guy who was prosecuted on the beech was a nighthawk who the gardai knew and had warned not to detect- also he was detecting near where the Tara Brooch was discovered! The most important find behind The Ardagh Chalice.

The police do well to get people like that, but the archaeologists are using exceptional cases to give everyone the fear!

Minelab are made in Cork, so maybe they could clarify.-

hh rory



hh
rory

 

[kajo]

Hi spudkin100,

While since I was here as you can tell lol.

People should be aware its not beyond the archaeologists or the national museum of ireland to post on these forums including our own Irish forum.
Something we have clear proof that is taking place and have even banned a number of them from our forum.

If you find anything you think you should hand over to the national museum of ireland use the 96 hours to get legal advice.
Ron byrne does not and never claimed to issue a licence to metal detect so where that claim was made is beyond me.
I am sure if Ron sold you a detector he explained the law to you and you told him you understood that law right?.
Its not nice to make false claims nobody makes anybody buy a detector and only a fool would buy one without looking into the hobby first.

Most of what you see in the last few posts are interpreted incorrectly regarding the law.
We have a forum Irish Metal Detecting? hope I am not breaking any rules by posting that.
The law is made up of words something that people like to see in what ever light they like.
The fact is none of our members in the last number of years were ever arrested or prosecuted.
People just need to be aware of the rules and regulations and stick to detecting within the law.
We have had meetings with ned kelly the national museum of ireland and the man is what he is .. not an inch.
Its best we put him in the past where he belongs and move forward without him.
Technology is moving at a fast pace if the national museum of ireland fail to move with it well then its their loss.
If they want our respect then they must show the same courtesy.
Black mail, threats, intimation must stop if ever we are to make progress.
The archaeologists in Ireland who feel they are the elite of society frown upon us .. how dare we come to their playground.
We have a campaign in progress its called a green light for change why not join us in that campaign and make change happen.
Check out our videos on youtube including Irelands 1st MD Rally ... we are here to stay and we are active.

Happy Hunting Guys!

Kajo

Please take a look at this video:

 

[kajo]

Update

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/irishmetaldetecting


Green Light For Change

 

[kajo]

16 Sep 2018

​

Metal Detecting Token Hunt For Charity

This Was Our First Event Open To The Public And Advertised On Facebook

The NMI Tried To Have This Charity Event Stopped and Failed

​

The NMI Said They Would Attend The Dig With The Garda But Did Not Showup

​

The Garda Did Arrive And Were Happy No Laws Were Broken And Left






All our members now have membership cards that state their intentions and that they will comply with the law.