Is pump for highbanker considered a “suction dredge”?

[AdamGoldCA]

Hi Team,

Feel free to point me to an existing post if this has already been answered.

I’m planning to operate a highbanker on a claim here in CA using a gas powered water pump to supply water to it from a stream. All pay dirt will be shoveled in by hand.

CA does not allow “suction dredging” without a permit.

Does suctioning and using water only (no dirt) using a pump fall under the definition of “suction dredging “?

In my mind suction dredging is vacuuming material to run, but looking for clarification so I am not hit with any problems when operating on the claim.

Thx in advance!

 

[Gold:Au]

Thx Mike...

The official definition is:

California Water Code section 13172.5.(a) defines suction dredge mining as:
"the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals."

I've put out emails requesting clarification to the CA Water Board and CA Dept Fish and Wildlife.

The only potential hang up could be around "the processing of" contained within the definition, and any concerns about the outflow of the highbanker back into the stream.

I would bet you are correct on your assumption, unfortunately.

While a reasonable person would define a "Suction Dredge" as something that sucks up water and gravels, their definition does extend that definition to "The processing of", which would definitely include a water pump for a high banker.

Some of the states here in Australia have used similar wording for decades, yet have only recently started enforcing that definition to highbanker pumps. One potential loophole you may be able to utilise is to use a motorised system to legally pump water up the bank into something like an IBC. Then the pump can be packed away and you can use the stored water and gravity to process your dirt.

 

[Assembler]

Thx Mike...

The official definition is:

California Water Code section 13172.5.(a) defines suction dredge mining as:
"the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals."

I've put out emails requesting clarification to the CA Water Board and CA Dept Fish and Wildlife.

The only potential hang up could be around "the processing of" contained within the definition, and any concerns about the outflow of the highbanker back into the stream.

The activity of "Mining" is not "The processing of" unless you plan on some agricultural activity with rocks?

The issue of "Silt" plume in the uncontained water is likely the triggering factor?

Water Board and Dept Fish and wildlife do not define "Mine" nor the activity of "Mining".

Perhaps a letter would be better then an email for inquiring concerns about the outflow after the containment that would lead to a "Silt" issue for a given Office or Agency. May be a good idea for a certified numbered letter to start with.

 

[Assembler]

I would bet you are correct on your assumption, unfortunately.

While a reasonable person would define a "Suction Dredge" as something that sucks up water and gravels, their definition does extend that definition to "The processing of", which would definitely include a water pump for a high banker.

Some of the states here in Australia have used similar wording for decades, yet have only recently started enforcing that definition to highbanker pumps. One potential loophole you may be able to utilise is to use a motorised system to legally pump water up the bank into something like an IBC. Then the pump can be packed away and you can use the stored water and gravity to process your dirt.

The loop hole is not taking in to consideration the "Silt" plume in the uncontained water.

 

[AdamGoldCA]

Here is my plan B…
any thoughts or experiences with River Sluices?

 

[N-Lionberger]

In the picture it looks like he’s siphoning water from upstream to run his sluice. That or what I think of as river sluicing using the natural stream flow to operate your sluice that is legal.

 

[Assembler]

Here is my plan B…
any thoughts or experiences with River Sluices?

View attachment 2203144

Perhaps the State of California has something like the following?:



Exclusion Certificate

Exclusion certificates are required for mining activity that removes less than 5,000 cubic yards and affects less than one acre of land within a 12-month period. Operating Permits are required for mining activities above these thresholds.

For placer mining and other non-aggregate mineral surface mining operations, applications must be received by DOGAMI no later than July 31, 2017 or 90 days after the start of excavation, whichever occurs later.

Are Exclusion Certificates required for small-scale mining operations?

Yes. In 2015, the Oregon Legislature passed House Bill 3563, which requires small-scale mining

operations to apply for an Exclusion Certificate from the Oregon Department of Geology and Mineral

Industries (DOGAMI).

Exclusion Certificate requirements apply to mining activity that removes less than 5,000 cubic yards and

affects less than one acre of land within a 12-month period. Operating Permits are required for mining

activities above these thresholds, and for any mining operation that exceeds 5 acres of disturbance.

Please note, there are situations where an Exclusion Certificate is not needed because they do not meet

the definition of surface mining (the creation and maintaining of forest roads is one example). Contact

DOGAMI before applying if you think your site may not meet the definition of surface mining.

Where do I find the Exclusion Certificate application form?

Application forms are available online at: http://www.oregongeology.org/mlrr/surfacemining.htm

You may also contact DOGAMI at (541) 967-2039 or mlrr.info@oregon.gov to request a form.

https://www.oregon.gov/dogami/mlrr/forms/sufacemining/FAQ_Exclusion_Certificates_20201223.pdf

 

[Assembler]

Here is my plan B…
any thoughts or experiences with River Sluices?

View attachment 2203144

Does California have rules on “Prospecting”, “Recreational mining” like Oregon does?

Notice the word "Mine" is not covered within the rules. Is California the same?

What is your proposed yards moved / processed per year on the deposit?

 

[Assembler]

Here is my plan B…
any thoughts or experiences with River Sluices?

View attachment 2203144

The picture you post is from the circular 8517 How to Mine and Prospect for Placer Gold by J.M.West on page 27. Published by Department of the Interior Bureau of Mines, date 1971. Perhaps used in other publications?

If you take a look at page 14 of this same publication you will find:
In California, the California Debris Commission and the Cal. Fish and Game Code regulate discharges from mining operations..........

"except when the debris, substances, tailings, or other effluent from such operations do not and cannot pass into waters in the said district".

The above quote is from relevant section of California statutes.

Also on page 14 is:

Such laws require the construction of a settling pond or ponds of sufficient size to clarify the water used in mining before it is discharged into the stream.

 

[Assembler]

§670. Surrender to United States of right to regulate debris of mine​

Said petition shall be accompanied by an instrument duly executed and acknowledged, as required by the law of the said State, whereby the owner or owners of such mine or mines surrender to the United States the right and privilege to regulate by law, as provided in this chapter, or any law that may be enacted after March 1, 1893, or by such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by virtue thereof, the manner and method in which the debris resulting from the working of said mine or mines shall be restrained, and what amount shall be produced therefrom; it being understood that the surrender aforesaid shall not be construed as in any way affecting the right of such owner or owners to operate said mine or mines by any other process or method in use in said State on March 1, 1893: Provided, That they shall not interfere with the navigability of the aforesaid rivers.

(Mar. 1, 1893, ch. 183, §10, 27 Stat. 508.)

 

[Assembler]

Thx Mike...

The official definition is:

California Water Code section 13172.5.(a) defines suction dredge mining as:
"the use of a mechanized or motorized system for removing or assisting in the removal of, or the processing of, material from the bed, bank, or channel of a river, stream, or lake in order to recover minerals."

I've put out emails requesting clarification to the CA Water Board and CA Dept Fish and Wildlife.

The only potential hang up could be around "the processing of" contained within the definition, and any concerns about the outflow of the highbanker back into the stream.

Mechanized usually refers to machinery that is not powered by man. This has nothing to do with "Debris commission", 'water use', and water "Quality".

 

[Tesorodeoro]

Laws are supposed to be written so ordinary people can interpret them and understand them. If the purpose of the law was to ban river “suction” “dredging” in its commonly understood sense, I don’t see where it would be lawful for them to extend the law to include ANY mechanized water pumping that does not remotely include dredging or suction of aggregates. Just my thoughts. Do we know of any convictions for using pumped water in California specifically under this ban? EDIT: OH shit, I just saw what I stepped in here with this thread..here we go!

 

[Assembler]

Laws are supposed to be written so ordinary people can interpret them and understand them. If the purpose of the law was to ban river “suction” “dredging” in its commonly understood sense, I don’t see where it would be lawful for them to extend the law to include ANY mechanized water pumping that does not remotely include dredging or suction of aggregates. Just my thoughts. Do we know of any convictions for using pumped water in California specifically under this ban? EDIT: OH shit, I just saw what I stepped in here with this thread..here we go!

There is a whole lot less "Interpretation" when you look at acts of congress. At the "State" level words and phrases defined need to be read first in order to help keep things in context of usage.

Excellent point about any mechanized machinery that is used to move earth and rock for the extraction of minerals.

There are citations being made for "Water quality" issues that can arise from earth / rock / pollution / "Silt" going into the US. waters.