Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

I’ve always had reservations about the Rogers Dist. being the area of the LDM due to the other mining activity in the area during the timeframe Waltz might’ve been there. Many other members of this forum have expressed the same.

I’ve taken a look at what evidence I have on-hand, to establish a timeline in order to determine whether or not the Pit mine area was occupied by other miners, precluding Waltz from working the area.

Worst case scenario, Jacob Waltz would have had 4 years to prospect, locate, and process ore from any area in the Rogers mining district without interference from miners associated with the location of the Silver Chief and creation of the Rogers District. Best case scenario, he would have had 8 years to do so.

The beginning of this time frame is based on his last known mining claim filed in 1865 (Walker Dist.), and the next official record, of his being on the census in the SRV in 1870. I have no idea where he was during this five year timeframe…I realize authors have said he was in SRV in 1868, but I have no evidence on-hand to prove he was. Perhaps someone reading this has actual evidence for this timeframe. So I went with 1870-1874 as being worst case, 1866-1874 being best case. (1874 end-date based on Roger’s et al. Silver Chief claim in 1875).

Related, we also have factual evidence that Jacob Waltz claimed three mines in the Walker District within a 2-3 year time-frame after arriving from CA. Comparatively, worst-case, he had 4 years to find 1 mine in the Supes.

Take what you will from the above…personally, unless other evidence comes to light, I’m no longer worried about this area being a candidate for the LDM or caches. Best, Jim

I believe Matthew Roberts had posted about finding the Waltz homestead location claim dating to April of 1868, mentioned in:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...b-waltz-160-acre-1-4-section.html#post4034161

This reported discovery was also contested, ending up on 'another channel' as the saying goes so I can't post the link to it.

Please do continue,

 

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[BlackLine]

Well that makes for an even more interesting translation possibility, as in he is saying "from my DEPOSIT (aka CACHE, or Mine perhaps?) lets see how that works out in Anglo:

Von meiner lagerstatte wen du im sattel sitz kannst du in ferne im suden durch ein loch vom Berg sehen.

translation:

From my DEPOSIT <or cache, or perhaps mine?> where you sit in the saddle, you can see far off in the south through a hole in the mountain.

This would seem to be a very close parallel to one of the popular Waltz clues, namely (and I am paraphrasing from memory, not directly quoting)

'From above my mine, you can see a pointed peak to the south.'

Interesting! Thank you!

Please do continue,

The correct spelling in german is:
Von meiner Lagerstätte aus, wenn du im Sattel sitzt, kannst du in der Ferne im Süden durch ein Loch im Berg sehen.
If you need the correct german clues in my language... just ask

for me is instresting what mr. davis told in "good as gold". "pass a seep springs"
i found on the way to my mine site (where i asked if i should dig) a seep springs (pic 1) and across the hole (pic 2)
you can see the mineralization...

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Soome hiker, Better than Global Earth are aerial photographs. Good luck.

 

[BlackLine]

loool its the first time that i see that the hole have an outline like a gun

 

[somehiker]

Soome hiker, Better than Global Earth are aerial photographs. Good luck.

Yes they are, and I had a set of most of Arizona on loan a few years ago.
I have my own stereoscopic viewer, which I have had since 1967.
Using it was part of my first full time job back then.
Gives a great 3-D view of terrain, vegetation, and even old structures.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

Waltz is claimed to have said he only returned to the mine once or twice. If that's true, the catclaw slowly choked to death any trail or sign of an entrance. Waltz only ducked in and loaded up a few sacks of ore and ducked right back out again. In his time, there was no real working of a mine. Not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility. If the old shaft was used as a cache, there would have been little for anyone to notice. It's not like that ridge was ever Grand Central Station like.

Take care,

Joe

Joe:

When I want to check something out, I don't let no catclaw hold me back. So I wouldn't think it would discourage a halfway determined prospector either.
But given the effects of cattle grazing out there, I think it's hard to say what sort of vegetation existed on that ridgeline back then. That was a topic of some discussion once before, as I recall.

Regards;Wayne

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe:

When I want to check something out, I don't let no catclaw hold me back. So I wouldn't think it would discourage a halfway determined prospector either.
But given the effects of cattle grazing out there, I think it's hard to say what sort of vegetation existed on that ridgeline back then. That was a topic of some discussion once before, as I recall.

Regards;Wayne

Wayne,

I know lots of folks like that. Can't count the number of times they show up in camp looking like they tangled up with a mountain lion. I have been scratched up a few times, but usually will work my way around the thick stuff or cut my way through it. You Canadians are the real men. On the other hand, you're too ugly to worry about a few more scars.

Waltz talked about the thick vegetation around the pit. Warned them to get some HD clothes for protection. When Dave finally broke through the brush he almost fell down the shaft. You wouldn't have a clue what you were looking for from the top of the ridge. It's well hidden. If it was so easy to find, why didn't we hear about it earlier.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Joe

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I believe Matthew Roberts had posted about finding the Waltz homestead location claim dating to April of 1868, mentioned in:
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...b-waltz-160-acre-1-4-section.html#post4034161

This reported discovery was also contested, ending up on 'another channel' as the saying goes so I can't post the link to it.

Please do continue,

Thank you, amigo...and thanks also for the bump on the other channel, made it easier to find for sure. My gut feel is JW came to the SRV early in 1867, but have no evidence to support that, which is why I went with 1870 in my previous post...one other thing that I need to consider is whether or not any miners were active in the Randolph district, was only looking at Rogers before...which I think might be a huge error on my part...So now I'm trying to figure out what mines in Randolph were up and running during that same timeframe...anyway, thanks for the help - Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Wayne,

I know lots of folks like that. Can't count the number of times they show up in camp looking like they tangled up with a mountain lion. I have been scratched up a few times, but usually will work my way around the thick stuff or cut my way through it. You Canadians are the real men. On the other hand, you're too ugly to worry about a few more scars.

Waltz talked about the thick vegetation around the pit. Warned them to get some HD clothes for protection. When Dave finally broke through the brush he almost fell down the shaft. You wouldn't have a clue what you were looking for from the top of the ridge. It's well hidden. If it was so easy to find, why didn't we hear about it earlier.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Joe

Hmm well we might have to ask, was the Pit mine NOT noticed? The silver strike in the district was certainly broadcast to the public repeatedly and for years, via the newspapers of the day. So it quite probably is noticed in the silver mining rush and excitement. If memory serves, the newspaper accounts include the mention that rich pockets of gold were found in one of the silver mines. I believe it was more than one mine that proved to have more than silver in it, but one I can definitely find again.

I want to point out that I am not and never said that the fellows who worked on the Pit mine a few years ago were mining silver. I am saying that deep shaft and tunnel workings however almost certainly was done by the silver miners for the silver content, not the gold. I don't pretend that the recent work was for the silver undoubtedly it was for a nice pocket of gold. But the majority of the work done, as the mine existed when it was rediscovered, had been done for the silver, not gold.

Jim I will keep looking, but the sale record of Waltz selling the last claim in the Bradshaw range is also either 1867 or 1868, which would make sense for him moving to the Phoenix area (Salt River valley I should say).

Please do continue,

 

[Simon1]

Wayne,

I know lots of folks like that. Can't count the number of times they show up in camp looking like they tangled up with a mountain lion. I have been scratched up a few times, but usually will work my way around the thick stuff or cut my way through it. You Canadians are the real men. On the other hand, you're too ugly to worry about a few more scars.

Waltz talked about the thick vegetation around the pit. Warned them to get some HD clothes for protection. When Dave finally broke through the brush he almost fell down the shaft. You wouldn't have a clue what you were looking for from the top of the ridge. It's well hidden. If it was so easy to find, why didn't we hear about it earlier.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Joe

Please excuse me if I sound ignorant, but with all the wildfires that had been up there, wouldn't that have burnt the vegetation and/or wood and timber that may have been used to help hide the entrance or just made it worse to locate an entrance ?

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I know lots of folks like that. Can't count the number of times they show up in camp looking like they tangled up with a mountain lion. I have been scratched up a few times, but usually will work my way around the thick stuff or cut my way through it. You Canadians are the real men. On the other hand, you're too ugly to worry about a few more scars.

Waltz talked about the thick vegetation around the pit. Warned them to get some HD clothes for protection. When Dave finally broke through the brush he almost fell down the shaft. You wouldn't have a clue what you were looking for from the top of the ridge. It's well hidden. If it was so easy to find, why didn't we hear about it earlier.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Joe

Joe:

"ugly"....yes, but scars do add some character, and most folks won't mess with someone who has blood spatters all over their arms and such.
'Bout the only time I get a lot of "yessir-nosir" treatment down there.....

I remember the "old clothes" suggestion Waltz made to Julia and Rhiney, that in reference to the steep and brushy ravine where he also said the mine was at or near the top end ofI. He also said, as I recall, that they wouldn't be able to get down from above, as it was too steep to go that way. Something about the ravine being narrow as well, and the general location very rough ( geologically / broken up ?), so that may have been as much or more of a factor that just the brush and catclaw that's up there now. I don't know that Dave's experience proves anything, since he found the pit as left by those who had most recently worked it, and not covered, as we have been told it was when "re-discovered".

Regards:Wayne

 

[Old]

For all that want a fuller understanding of the "Pit Mine" and its history there is quite a bit of information available on line (in this forum and elsewhere). One thing very important to understanding the evolution of the Pit Mine is to understand Ted Cox, what he believed and what he did. That's no small order <g>.

But before we get there, lets back track for a moment. I'd recommend you read Herman's interview shortly (very shortly) before his death. Why Herman? Because he's the closest source we have that documents what Waltz really said. Even he is a second hand source. But he's the closest we have (in my opinion). In that interview (and other talks at that time) He looks to the north and points to the Iron Mountain area and tells us many old Spanish mines are located there, Three of which were known to Jacob Waltz. He mentions their names as the El Sombrero, a mostly worked out digging, and The Quartzer and The Placer. Waltz worked the Quartzer and The Placer.

My personal belief is the Quartzer and Placer are the two primary mines discussed in most clues we research today. Geographically they all lay on the same basic fault line or volcanic event. The El Sombrero lying further west than the other two and with the Quartzer and Placer being further east. And; those two being somewhat closer together. The Quartzer first and the Placer being the most eastern one and across canyon and a little north of the Quartzer. My guess (for what its worth) is the Quartzer is the same mine we know today as The Pit Mine. The Quartzer was a dug deposit deeper (but not very deep) on the same ledge, and the Placer was a surface outcrop where the ledge met the surface (not too deep at all).

Other sources dovetail very well with these stories and the possible location of the mines. All "Peralta" legends speak of them working two mines in this area, in close proximity, and of the same general description. This is the description Adolph Ruth had which was told to his son, Erwin Ruth, by his Mexican sources. And this is the same story told by John Reed. Of course there are holes in John Reed's story as big as Texas. If you can believe any of it, it always speaks of two rich sites, both difficult to find, worked originally by the Mexican miners. One a dug mine the other a more surface type. You can read John Reed's personal letters describing the mines and telling his story in Garry Cudliff's pages under The Adolph Ruth Story - Eleanor Clark collection. Its fascinating. Its my opinion all of John Reed and his father's interaction with Jacob Waltz (if that really happened) took place at The Quartzer. My personal opinion is John Reed was recounting stores of such encounters told by his father (and embellished) and he personally never laid eyes on Jacob Waltz, I could be wrong. John Reed's father looked for but never found the Placer.

The Roger's District silver strike took place in the mid 1870's. After Waltz had retired from active mining (in my opinion). Any late in life trips by Waltz was for retrieval of caches (in my opinion). Just my thoughts.

You can read a very descriptive account of the Roger's mine, the Silver Chief, era 1875 here.
https://books.google.com/books?id=U...r's mining district silver chief 1875&f=false

Does that sound like the same "Silver Chief" later claimed by Abby Hatch in 1910? Not to me, but to each, their own to decide. The Abby Hatch Silver Chief (1,2, 3 etc) (I believe) are the mines depicted on the Jack Carlson/Jack San Falise maps. I very well could be wrong on that too. I'm just telling you what I think. I don't have copies of what was originally filed in the 1875 era but I do have the 1910 filings. It should be noted Abby Hatch filed as a new find location, not a refiling on an existing mine. Small point, and I don't know squat about filing for claims. But I have seen filings where existing mines were reopened as a re-filing, not a new location, over and over again in the records. If this was the "original" Roger's Silver Chief why wasn't this filed as a re-filing on an existing mine Something to ponder.

Fast forward to Ted Cox. Interesting man, with an interesting history. Matthew Roberts wrote an excellent piece on him which can be found in this forum under the thread title "Ted Cox and the Ridge Pit Mine". Ted Cox wasn't just a "come-here" dutch hunter. He was raised with a Mexican influence, I would suppose he spoke the language fluently and understood the culture. His father was a miner and lost mine hunter before him. He knew the area well and spent a good part of his life exploring it in and out of old pits. I don't totally discount all that he wrote and thought just because he lead a life on the edge of society. If that's a reason to throw out all he said and thought we'd have to throw out most of what we know from ALL sources associated with this legend <g>.

Ted Cox left a very detailed account of his theory, findings and a map in his diary. That map depicts both the Quartz and the Placer deposits. If you want to know why current day folks (not to be named) dug where they did and found what they did, you need look no further than the Ted Cox diary and map. What it shows and where its located is in total harmony with history handed down since the Mexican miners first put pick to rock.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Old: Nice work...I never thought seriously about the pit mine being LDM/LDC until a few days ago...I've never believed much in any clues or maps either, as I had no idea how to sort the wheat from the chaff...The biggest heresy is that I also never believed the matchbox, tie pin, and other misc. baubles were ever properly authenticated...if and when they are all shown to come from the same source, and match ore found in the "LDM", wherever that may be...well, call me an old skeptic, I just never think it will happen. In fact, I don't even think all the jewelry specimens would match up if compared...maybe I'm wrong, but if this has been done and made public, I haven't seen it. Would appreciate it, if it has been done, if someone would help me out.

I think Garry (novice) was once headed down that road....is Garry still researching? I went to his old ancestry site and didn't see any LDM links.

Also, I've never read the Cox notes, is there an electronic copy out there?

I'll look again, but from my not so good memory, I think the Hatch claims are on the other (west) side of the ridge. Best, Jim

 

[Old]

Jim I'm with ya on most all that you question. Especially the provenance of the match box ore. Maybe it is, maybe not. I don't take it as a foregone conclusion. Its in the maybe column for me.

Yeap, the Hatch claims are west of the Arizona Trail, as is the Pit Mine. The Placer deposit, by my thoughts, is not. Its East of. And oddly enough there is a heart shaped rock platform big enough to land a Chinook that guards the entrance.

 

[Oroblanco]

Please excuse me if I sound ignorant, but with all the wildfires that had been up there, wouldn't that have burnt the vegetation and/or wood and timber that may have been used to help hide the entrance or just made it worse to locate an entrance ?

A good question amigo! I have to admit that we have taken advantage of the results of a wildfire to hunt for a lost mine on a couple of occasions and are planning to do it again next summer, as a rather interesting area unfortunately burned off a couple of weeks ago. The removal of all the brush etc would tend to make any mines stand out more, it seems reasonable to conclude. But perhaps it works the opposite way, the fire making the brush grow in thicker etc?

Potbelly Jim wrote

The biggest heresy is that I also never believed the matchbox, tie pin, and other misc. baubles were ever properly authenticated...if and when they are all shown to come from the same source, and match ore found in the "LDM", wherever that may be...well, call me an old skeptic, I just never think it will happen. In fact, I don't even think all the jewelry specimens would match up if compared...maybe I'm wrong, but if this has been done and made public, I haven't seen it. Would appreciate it, if it has been done, if someone would help me out.

Well I don't know if it will help you out or not, but consider this aspect - if the famous matchbox DIDN'T come from the ore found under Jacob Waltz's deathbed, why would Dick Holmes bother to have it made into a matchbox and tell folks it was? Especially considering that he himself then proceeded to search for the mine himself. If it were a fake, or from some God-knows-what mine, there would not be any reason to make into a matchbox and then cook up a tale for it. So we have only his word on it, but there seems little reason to lie about that, especially when he had been accused of stealing that gold ore in the first place.

As I have not seen all of the jewelry pieces, I could not address your bet, however I have seen one other piece of the ore that was not among the jewelry pieces, and it looked very like the matchbox. Unfortunately I could not buy, borrow or steal it.

We could just throw out the whole idea of making a match of the ore from the mine to the jewelry pieces ore, as so many here on the forums keep insisting. IF we do so, then we have NO scientific method of confirming or disproving ANY claim that ANYONE makes to have found the lost Dutchman's gold mine. We would need to start passing out the hearty congratulations, to over 200 different claimants since 1891, and in over 200 different places! I am certainly open to another scientific method of confirming that someone has indeed found the famous Lost Dutchman's mine, if anyone has such a method. So I still hold that matching the ore found in a mine to the matchbox (as one example) as our best chance of making a positive ID in a scientific way.

Please do continue, you have given me an idea Jim thanks!
Oroblanco

 

[Simon1]

Going over the area with a thermal imaging camera shortly after an unfortunate fire could pay large dividends ?
Sorry to intrude, please accept more coffee.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Roy, sorry if my post sounded like I was trying to be a jerk…I was sincere in asking for someone to help me out…it seems like I’m always having to ask everyone on this and other channels for help, regarding something that to everyone else is common knowledge…I go long periods of time without being able to keep up on this…You and Joe are always going out of your way to clear things up for me (thank you).

For example, I had no idea that Holmes had the matchbox made…as I understood the story, it was made by a jeweler for presentation to someone, and then at some later date, it came out that it was made with ore that Holmes had sold in PHX…if it was made by/for Holmes with the other jewelry, then you have cleared that issue up for me…my comment about the other jewelry not matching up is because I’m unsure if it ALL came from Brownie…If someone other than Brownie or his heirs popped up with Dutchman ore jewelry, I would question that…also I wouldn’t be surprised if the ore under Waltz’s bed came from more than one mine…a miner’s “401-k”, so to speak, of select ores from his various mining ventures…


I totally understand the importance of having scientific methods (matching ore) to validating the legend and determining if someone really “found the LDM”…I would be satisfied with having just one piece of jewelry or ore match up with any “LDM find”. I doubt that would settle the issue, however, and people would still be arguing the issue…anyway, I hope I have done a better job of explaining myself, I know it’s a fault of mine that I’m not very good at articulating what I’m thinking…


Thanks again for all your help over the years, I really mean that! Best, Jim

 

[Old]

Just for discussion and not to be argumentative........

I thought the matchbox ore was sold to Goldman's as was the majority of the hoard. And; this one specimen was saved from the crusher, purchased by a local gentleman (not Holmes), and made into a presentation gift for an employee or associate. No

Other specimen's were (supposed) save by Holmes and made into jewelry, stick pin, cuff links and such, but not the matchbox piece.

That's one of the reasons I have some doubt about the provenance of the matchbox ore, generally. Not saying it isn't so. Just it doesn't add up logically for me.

No doubt the matchbox specimen is superb. If I'm Holmes and I'm going to keep some of the ore for jewelry purposes, the matchbox specimen would be at the top of my list. Why sell that one and keep lesser specimens for personal items? Stranger things have happened and it all could be 100% true. Its just odd.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Old...Regardless of where the matchbox came from, I totally get what Roy was saying...I agree with him as to its possible importance...but lack of evidence is not evidence of absence, right? All I really meant to say, I guess, is that we don't know what was in the box under the bed, or in the caches...Under the bed, it's possible there was a lot of rich electrum, and possibly also a lot of rich gold ore from one of JW's other mines...Who can really say? If that did happen to be the case, it makes sense to me as you pointed out that the rich gold ore would be the most likely to be made into jewelry, and the lesser value stuff turned into cash...so there's at least a possibility that there may never be a match between the pit mine ore and the jewelry ore... we may never be able to determine if the pit mine is, or isn't, the LDM using ore comparison...while ore comparison could indicate that the pit mine IS the LDM, it can't necessarily prove it ISN'T...hope that makes sense and I didn't further confuse the issue. Best, Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Just for discussion and not to be argumentative........

I thought the matchbox ore was sold to Goldman's as was the majority of the hoard. And; this one specimen was saved from the crusher, purchased by a local gentleman (not Holmes), and made into a presentation gift for an employee or associate. No

Other specimen's were (supposed) save by Holmes and made into jewelry, stick pin, cuff links and such, but not the matchbox piece.

That's one of the reasons I have some doubt about the provenance of the matchbox ore, generally. Not saying it isn't so. Just it doesn't add up logically for me.

No doubt the matchbox specimen is superb. If I'm Holmes and I'm going to keep some of the ore for jewelry purposes, the matchbox specimen would be at the top of my list. Why sell that one and keep lesser specimens for personal items? Stranger things have happened and it all could be 100% true. Its just odd.

I wasn't there when Holmes decided to sell the matchbox, but the explanation given was that he was broke and needed money. I can affirm that when you are broke, and you really need money, you will find it's possible to sell things that otherwise you would never sell. I don't see any reason to doubt Holmes explanation.

Please do continue,