Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

Oroblanco

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Hola amigos,

There has been a lot of banter on several forums, over several years now, with many people claiming that the Pit mine (for lack of a better name) is really the Lost Dutchman. What do you think?

Here is some info on that area, which was called the Randolph mining district in the late 1870s. When the first strike was made (the Randolph mine) in 1877, a rush of prospectors went into the area and opened a number of mines, at least 30 claims were filed and kept active for a number of years. Plans to build mills for processing the ore were made but as far as I could tell, only one ever was attempted and I don't know if it was ever completed. As Rod Serling used to say, "submitted for your approval"

Randolph District is situated in the Superstition range, north-west from Pinal City. The ledges of the district are large, with ore of a high grade. The first discovery, known as the Randolph, is over 40 feet wide, the ledge being traceable across the country for several miles. The ores are mostly carbonates and chlorides of silver. Assays run all the way from $30 to $1,000 per ton. There is plenty of water, and wood can be had six miles distant.
The Resources of Arizona, Hamilton, 1881, pp 61

The same mineral belt continnes north westerly towards Superstition mountains where in February 1877 an old Arizonian named Garrett discovered a ledge averaging forty feet in width probably the largest found in this part of Arizona and plainly traceable for three miles which he named the Randolph. The district is called by this name and also by that of Pine Grove from its proximity six miles to large supplies of that timber it is not likely to suffer for want of names being also designated the Reynolds. The district is about ten miles north west of the Silver King thirty miles north of Florence and about the same distance east of Phoenix from which there is a good road to within two miles of the mines Shortly after the discovery of the Randolph on which there were recently thirteen locations another ledge was discovered on the other side of the ridge which was called the Sky blue from the color of the ore and a third in the vicinity was called the Silver Chief. The ore of all these ledges is high grade and in great quantity. The Randolph crops out in some places twenty five to forty feet in height and all the croppings show mineral. The ore is perfectly free milling mostly chlorides and carbonates of silver Assays are from $100 to $2,000 per ton and it is claimed average $500. Next north from the discovery claim is the Kentuck followed by the Manhattan and Knickerbocker. Several assays from the Sky blue and the adjoining Hidden Treasure average $460. The Guanajuato assays $3,000 the ledge is 200 feet in width and the estimated monthly yield seventy five tons of ore per month at $2,000 per ton. Mr Kearsing the assayer of Pioneer district made several assays from the Randolph district which ranged from $300 to $34 per ton. One quartz mill is contracted for and others are in prospect

The Handbook to Arizona: Its Resources, History, Towns, Mines, Ruins, and ...
By Richard Josiah Hinton, pp 140

Randolph district This district is some 14 miles northwest from Pinal City in the foot hills of the Superstition range of mountains. The Randolph was the first discovery of importance made in this section. This mine is located on a ledge that measures over 40 feet in width and can be plainly traced by its outcroppings for several miles across the country. The ores are carbonate and chloride of silver assays of which run from $30 to $1,000 to the ton Considerable work has been done in opening the vein.

The Diamond Peak is a more recent location It shows unusually large quartz outcroppings which carry oxides and argentiferous galena . There are also a number of small veins of rich appearance that center in the main ledge and which give indications of gold. The Snow flake is one and a half miles easterly from this location It shows a vein 3 feet in width on the surface which carries horn silver chlorides and argentiferous galena The ledge is in a granite formation

The Germania is 2 miles southwest of the latter on another ledge that shows massive ontcroppings of silver bearing quartz A large gold quartz ledge has also recently been discovered in this district which can readily be traced for a considerable distance by its croppings Little work other than assessment has been done on any of the locations of this district on account most likely of its being remotely situated and somewhat difficult of access If however the discoveries prove as valu ble as anticipated capital and enterprise will be attracted
Report of the Director of the Mint upon the Statistics of the Production of Precious Metals in the United States, 1882 pp 289-290

Just my opinion but I believe the Pit mine is one of these old mines, which started life as a silver mine, though most all of these silver mines also had pockets of gold and this is what the crew removed - one of those pockets.

A number of the clues attributed to the Lost Dutchman mine are supposed to fit the Pit mine too - I will leave that list to someone else however.

So what do you think amigo, is the Pit mine the Lost Dutchman? Thank you in advance, and please keep in mind that whether we agree or not, has nothing to do with our friendship, as Cactusjumper Joe pointed out, our discussions would be dull indeed if we all just agreed on everything.

Wishing you all a very Happy Thanksgiving, I look forward to your replies.:thumbsup:
Roy ~ Oroblanco

:coffee2::coffee2::coffee2:
 

sgtfda

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Nice post Roy. I know Jack said they are trying to reopen the Silver King but the government requirements make it just about impossible.
 

sgtfda

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Sort of applies here.

image-3261968596.jpg
 

roadrunner

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They have been pulling ore out of the Silver King for the last 2 years or so.I will check with the local lumbar yard owner.
The local lumbar yard builds the pallets that have sides and a lid to ship it.
These are specially built because they have to have 4X4 runners on the bottom for the weight.
They are also held together by carriage bolts.
I will stop by and get a pic of one of them and ask what the situation is on whether it is still running or not.
I am going to ask for a specimen also.
 

Cubfan64

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A tin type photo of a young man in his early 20's was mentioned by Frank in another thread as having been found by someone in the Superstition Mountains. This photo has been discussed off and on over the years as possibly being a tin type photograph of a young Jacob Waltz perhaps in his college days at Heidelberg College in Germany. In one of the discussions we had a few years ago, a couple folks reminded everyone that tintype photographs were invented/developed in the early to mid 1850's and probably weren't used all that often until perhaps the late 1850's into the 60's.

Assuming of course that we have the right Jacob Waltz (which is always up for discussion), we have documentation that he signed a letter of intent to become a citizen of the US in Mississippi in 1848, a Jacob Waltz actually obtained citizenship in California in 1861 and we have other documents putting him in AZ in the early to mid 1860's. We also have census information suggesting that Waltz claimed to have been born ~1810, and we know he died in AZ in 1891.

Put all those things together, and I think it's very unlikely that the tintype photo could be our Jacob Waltz (again, assuming the documentation we have seen is correct or at least close).

I know this is a very minor part of the "pit mine" story, but I thought it was something worth mentioning.

Frank - did you delete your post about the class you went to that Jack SF presented? If you didn't have to take it down, I'd appreciate seeing it again - I know a little about the Bud Lane/Ted Cox story, but wanted to make sure I had it straight.
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Muchas gracias Sarge - love the toon too! :laughing7:
 

sgtfda

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They have been pulling ore out of the Silver King for the last 2 years or so.I will check with the local lumbar yard owner.
The local lumbar yard builds the pallets that have sides and a lid to ship it.
These are specially built because they have to have 4X4 runners on the bottom for the weight.
They are also held together by carriage bolts.
I will stop by and get a pic of one of them and ask what the situation is on whether it is still running or not.
I am going to ask for a specimen also.

RR. You misunderstood me or perhaps I did not explain. The want to process the ore at the mine
 

sgtfda

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I don't remove posts and did not remove that one.ill check and see if it is still listed. Unless it was removed because I mentioned a other forum
 

sgtfda

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A tin type photo of a young man in his early 20's was mentioned by Frank in another thread as having been found by someone in or near the Pit Mine. This photo has been discussed off and on over the years as possibly being a tin type photograph of a young Jacob Waltz perhaps in his college days at Heidelberg College in Germany. In one of the discussions we had a few years ago, a couple folks reminded everyone that tintype photographs were invented/developed in the early to mid 1850's and probably weren't used all that often until perhaps the late 1850's into the 60's.

Assuming of course that we have the right Jacob Waltz (which is always up for discussion), we have documentation that he signed a letter of intent to become a citizen of the US in Mississippi in 1848, a Jacob Waltz actually obtained citizenship in California in 1861 and we have other documents putting him in AZ in the early to mid 1860's. We also have census information suggesting that Waltz claimed to have been born ~1810, and we know he died in AZ in 1891.

Put all those things together, and I think it's very unlikely that the tintype photo could be our Jacob Waltz (again, assuming the documentation we have seen is correct or at least close).

I know this is a very minor part of the "pit mine" story, but I thought it was something worth mentioning.

Frank - did you delete your post about the class you went to that Jack SF presented? If you didn't have to take it down, I'd appreciate seeing it again - I know a little about the Bud Lane/Ted Cox story, but wanted to make sure I had it straight.

Paul its on page 5 of the clue to LDM thread. I said the tin type was repotered found in the mountains not the Pitt
 
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Cubfan64

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Paul its on page 5 of the clue to LDM thread. I said the tin type was repotered found in the mountains not the Pitt

Thanks Frank - I just didn't look hard enough. Should have just looked at your old posts. Sorry for the mistake about where you said it was found - I'll change that part. Pretty cool that Jack gave you a chunk of Silver King ore - a piece of history in your hands :).
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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No one cares to list the clues that match the Pit mine? ???
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Happy thanksgiving everyone - I am a bit surprised that so many people have stated their belief that the Pit mine is the Lost Dutchman, yet no one seems to be willing to make a case for it?

Anyone care to make the case? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

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coazon de oro

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No one cares to list the clues that match the Pit mine? ???

Howdy Roy,

When I asked Jack's disciples if any of a short list of clues matched, I didn't get one yes on any of the clues. All they had were questions about the place, like why would a reporter from the 1800's carve his name on a log inside a dwelling close by? Like this would make it the LDM. Even if the name Jacob Waltz was carved there, that would not prove that he worked that mine.

Who in their right mind they wonder, would risk mining silver ore? Not Joe's boys, no, it had to be gold. Speculations, and assumptions is all you will get, maybe a whisper if you are lucky. Whispers that are only in one's head, just like speculations, and assumptions, can not make it the LDGM.

Homar
 
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roadrunner

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Ill start with 3 clues Oro.
But I think they belong to nothing or mean nothing.

No miner will find my mine. ( miners look for float or minerals, or veins, they dont look for mines).

No cowboy will find my mine. (cowboys look for lost cattle, or danger for the cattle). They dont look for mines either.

My mine lies in a North South canyon or a tributary from one. I forget. ( 90% of canyons run North to south. 10 % run the east to West. These are just numbers to show a figure, not reality.) Just another lose end.

These are just figures of speech to throw people off and dont mean a thing to me. In other wards, a prangster,or the Joker.

Similier to this.

(riddle me this, Riddle me that, you can not find my mine,unless you live like a rat).

I will go read the part from the holmes manuscrpt that says Waltz was a joker, or some thing to that effect and post it.
 

Springfield

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Ill start with 3 clues Oro.
But I think they belong to nothing or mean nothing.

No miner will find my mine. ...

No cowboy will find my mine. ...

I always found these statements troubling and a bit annoying. In the first place, they might be looked at as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy - "Oh, well, he said we couldn't find it and we haven't." On the other hand, if it didn't exist, then it sure won't be found.

Also, it begs the question: if no miner can find it, then how did Waltz find it? Or, if he stole it from Mexicans, how did they find it?
 
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Oroblanco

Oroblanco

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Thank you Roadrunner - I was thinking of trying to present the case for the Pit mine myself <if no one else would> which I do not feel comfortable doing, as I am not convinced that it is the LDM plus I sure do not know all the clues which allegedly fit.

Springfield have to agree with you in part as well, though I think such clues as those were the kind of things Waltz said in saloons or in public, intended to tease the listeners with infuriating type info. In other words something which might well be true, yet is of little or no use to help find the mine - like being able to see the military trail from the mine but not see the mine from the trail.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco
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