IT SEEMED LIKE A GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME
- Thread starter holeintoe
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Darren in NC
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I love Ecuador. Whadya think, Don? The real deal?
Darren:
About a year ago, I made Ed a "Plata" project offer, based on his beliefs about Drake. Ed declined the offer.
Anyone interested in Isla la Plata would benefit from first doing the research. I'd suggest the following areas be examined carefully;
1. The historic record; noting the difference between offloading for purposes of careening a vessel, versus offloading being interpreted as a "dumping" of cargo (silver in this case);
2. Note again, the historic record. Which direction was Drake travelling before stopping at Isla de Plata?
3. Be open to the fact that there might be another 'Isla de Plata' within a sailing distance that would fit the timeframe of Drake's log. And, of course, there is.
Don.....
About a year ago, I made Ed a "Plata" project offer, based on his beliefs about Drake. Ed declined the offer.
Anyone interested in Isla la Plata would benefit from first doing the research. I'd suggest the following areas be examined carefully;
1. The historic record; noting the difference between offloading for purposes of careening a vessel, versus offloading being interpreted as a "dumping" of cargo (silver in this case);
2. Note again, the historic record. Which direction was Drake travelling before stopping at Isla de Plata?
3. Be open to the fact that there might be another 'Isla de Plata' within a sailing distance that would fit the timeframe of Drake's log. And, of course, there is.
Don.....
Don,
I have no doubt,having read both the Spanish and English records that after Drake plundered the Cacafuego, he went to the Island of Cano, off the Costa Rica coast, and then on to Huatulco, Mexico. He did not have time to double back and dump a large part of his cargo at the Isla de Plata off the Ecuador coast. However, that does not mean that somebody else might not have dumped silver there at some time. In a previous positing old man, who seems to be a straight-up guy, says that he found a silver bar on the seabed in a cove on the Isla de Plata, but left it there because he did not have a permit, and did not want to foul up his chances of getting one. I do not know if old man saw lots of silver bars, or only the one he mentioned.
Also recently, I note that Global Marine claimed that they had Government licenses to salvage the supposed Drake silver on this same Ecuador Island.
Now Ed Krajewski claims to have found Drake's silver at the Isla de Plata last year, and to have video evidence of it, but instead of retiring a wealthy man, or pursuing other projects for his own benefit, he has gone to work for Deep Blue Marine as their Operations Manager. It does not make sense to me, but if Ed did actually find the silver, I would be interested in understanding what markings were on the silver, so we could see if it was compatible with being from the Cacafuego. I am going to e-mail Ed at Deep Blue to ask him if he has any details, and if any of the silver is available for purchase, but I wonder if anybody on the forum has come across any details about Ed's supposed find, or can confirm that he did find something. I haven't read the article that apparently appeared in Treasure Hunter magazine recently, and wonder whether this is available on line.
Mariner
I have no doubt,having read both the Spanish and English records that after Drake plundered the Cacafuego, he went to the Island of Cano, off the Costa Rica coast, and then on to Huatulco, Mexico. He did not have time to double back and dump a large part of his cargo at the Isla de Plata off the Ecuador coast. However, that does not mean that somebody else might not have dumped silver there at some time. In a previous positing old man, who seems to be a straight-up guy, says that he found a silver bar on the seabed in a cove on the Isla de Plata, but left it there because he did not have a permit, and did not want to foul up his chances of getting one. I do not know if old man saw lots of silver bars, or only the one he mentioned.
Also recently, I note that Global Marine claimed that they had Government licenses to salvage the supposed Drake silver on this same Ecuador Island.
Now Ed Krajewski claims to have found Drake's silver at the Isla de Plata last year, and to have video evidence of it, but instead of retiring a wealthy man, or pursuing other projects for his own benefit, he has gone to work for Deep Blue Marine as their Operations Manager. It does not make sense to me, but if Ed did actually find the silver, I would be interested in understanding what markings were on the silver, so we could see if it was compatible with being from the Cacafuego. I am going to e-mail Ed at Deep Blue to ask him if he has any details, and if any of the silver is available for purchase, but I wonder if anybody on the forum has come across any details about Ed's supposed find, or can confirm that he did find something. I haven't read the article that apparently appeared in Treasure Hunter magazine recently, and wonder whether this is available on line.
Mariner
Mariner and Cornelius:
I agree with you both; Mariner on your conclusion about Costa Rica, and Cornelius about dumping some canons, though my rendition of the canons had something to do with dumping those guns to accommodate loading cargo more valuable than gold.
No doubt, anyone who finds those (bronze??) guns will have a priceless piece of history.
Don.....
I agree with you both; Mariner on your conclusion about Costa Rica, and Cornelius about dumping some canons, though my rendition of the canons had something to do with dumping those guns to accommodate loading cargo more valuable than gold.
No doubt, anyone who finds those (bronze??) guns will have a priceless piece of history.
Don.....
Cornelius,
I think your words of caution are well placed, and appreciated.
As for the question of whether Drake left a substantial amount of treasure behind, I do not believe for one moment the stories about him dumping tons and tons of silver, somewhere in the Pacific. I think you are correct in suggesting that he would probably have dumped some of those guns first. (To get off a reef in the Moluccas, Drake dumped eight cannons, 3 tunnes of cloves and some food supplies) It is possible to work out that when Drake departed from New Albion he left behind the Spanish bark he captured off Costa Rica and a crew of about twenty four people. I believe he intended these to continue the search for the North West Passage. It is possible that he left them a small portion of his plunder, just in case they did not get back to England (which proved to be the case), and there is some evidence (or at least hearsay) that he went ashore near La Rochelle, France, and buried someof his plunder, to be recovered later. However, why would he have left a large amount of treasure on the other side of the world when he could have just captured a suitable Spanish ship if he needed extra capacity ? Still, it makes a good story.
Incidentally, I don't think there is enough information to work out where Drake ran onto the rocks and dumped the cannons, but perhaps one day they will be found by chance. Don's right in saying that these would be a priceless piece of history.
Mariner
I think your words of caution are well placed, and appreciated.
As for the question of whether Drake left a substantial amount of treasure behind, I do not believe for one moment the stories about him dumping tons and tons of silver, somewhere in the Pacific. I think you are correct in suggesting that he would probably have dumped some of those guns first. (To get off a reef in the Moluccas, Drake dumped eight cannons, 3 tunnes of cloves and some food supplies) It is possible to work out that when Drake departed from New Albion he left behind the Spanish bark he captured off Costa Rica and a crew of about twenty four people. I believe he intended these to continue the search for the North West Passage. It is possible that he left them a small portion of his plunder, just in case they did not get back to England (which proved to be the case), and there is some evidence (or at least hearsay) that he went ashore near La Rochelle, France, and buried someof his plunder, to be recovered later. However, why would he have left a large amount of treasure on the other side of the world when he could have just captured a suitable Spanish ship if he needed extra capacity ? Still, it makes a good story.
Incidentally, I don't think there is enough information to work out where Drake ran onto the rocks and dumped the cannons, but perhaps one day they will be found by chance. Don's right in saying that these would be a priceless piece of history.
Mariner
Mariner and Cornelius:
Perhaps this will help....
Chapter VII. Drake's 'Encompassment of All the Worlde'
Leaving Ternate, the _Golden Hind_ beat to and fro among the tortuous and only half-known channels of the Archipelago till the 9th of January, 1580, when she bore away before a roaring trade wind with all sail set and, so far as Drake could tell, a good clear course for home. But suddenly, without a moment's warning, there was a most terrific shock.
The gallant ship reared like a stricken charger, plunged forward, grinding her trembling hull against the rocks, and then lay pounding out her life upon a reef. Drake and his men at once took in half the straining sails; then knelt in prayer; then rose to see what could be done by earthly means.
To their dismay there was no holding ground on which to get an anchor fast and warp the vessel off. The lead could find no bottom anywhere aft. All night long the _Golden Hind_ remained fast caught in this insidious death-trap. At dawn Parson Fletcher preached a sermon and administered the Blessed Sacrament. Then Drake ordered ten tons overboard--cannon, cloves, and provisions. The tide was now low and she sewed seven feet, her draught being thirteen and the depth of water only six. Still she kept an even keel as the reef was to leeward and she had just sail enough to hold her up.
But at high tide in the afternoon there was a lull and she began to heel over towards the unfathomable depths. Just then, however, a quiver ran through her from stem to stern; an extra sail that Drake had ordered up caught what little wind there was; and, with the last throb of the rising tide, she shook herself free and took the water as quietly as if her hull was being launched. There were perils enough to follow: dangers of navigation, the arrival of a Portuguese fleet that was only just eluded, and all the ordinary risks of travel in times when what might be called the official guide to voyagers opened with the ominous advice, _First make thy Will_. But the greatest had now been safely passed.
Don.......
Perhaps this will help....
Chapter VII. Drake's 'Encompassment of All the Worlde'
Leaving Ternate, the _Golden Hind_ beat to and fro among the tortuous and only half-known channels of the Archipelago till the 9th of January, 1580, when she bore away before a roaring trade wind with all sail set and, so far as Drake could tell, a good clear course for home. But suddenly, without a moment's warning, there was a most terrific shock.
The gallant ship reared like a stricken charger, plunged forward, grinding her trembling hull against the rocks, and then lay pounding out her life upon a reef. Drake and his men at once took in half the straining sails; then knelt in prayer; then rose to see what could be done by earthly means.
To their dismay there was no holding ground on which to get an anchor fast and warp the vessel off. The lead could find no bottom anywhere aft. All night long the _Golden Hind_ remained fast caught in this insidious death-trap. At dawn Parson Fletcher preached a sermon and administered the Blessed Sacrament. Then Drake ordered ten tons overboard--cannon, cloves, and provisions. The tide was now low and she sewed seven feet, her draught being thirteen and the depth of water only six. Still she kept an even keel as the reef was to leeward and she had just sail enough to hold her up.
But at high tide in the afternoon there was a lull and she began to heel over towards the unfathomable depths. Just then, however, a quiver ran through her from stem to stern; an extra sail that Drake had ordered up caught what little wind there was; and, with the last throb of the rising tide, she shook herself free and took the water as quietly as if her hull was being launched. There were perils enough to follow: dangers of navigation, the arrival of a Portuguese fleet that was only just eluded, and all the ordinary risks of travel in times when what might be called the official guide to voyagers opened with the ominous advice, _First make thy Will_. But the greatest had now been safely passed.
Don.......
Sir Francis Drake's Famous Voyage Round the World
When we had ended our business here we weighed, and set sail to run
for the Malucos. But having at that time a bad wind, and being amongst
the islands, with much difficulty we recovered to the northward of the
island of Celebes; where by reason of contrary winds, not able to
continue our course to run westwards, we were enforced to alter the
same to the southward again, finding that course also to be very hard
and dangerous for us, by reason of infinite shoals which lie off and
among the islands; whereof we had too much trial, to the hazard and
danger of our ship and lives. For, of all other days, upon the 9th of
January, in the year 1579 [1580], we ran suddenly upon a rock, where
we stuck fast from eight of the clock at night till four of the clock
in the afternoon the next day, being indeed out of all hope to escape
the danger. But our General, as he had always hitherto shewed himself
courageous, and of a good confidence in the mercy and protection of
God, so now he continued in the same. And lest he should seem to
perish wilfully, both he and we did our best endeavour to save
ourselves; which it pleased God so to bless, that in the end we
cleared ourselves most happily of the danger.
We lighted our ship upon the rocks of three tons of cloves, eight
pieces of ordnance, and certain meal and beans; and then the wind, as
it were in a moment by the special grace of God, changing from the
starboard to the larboard of the ship, we hoisted our sails, and the
happy gale drove our ship off the rock into the sea again, to the no
little comfort of all our hearts, for which we gave God such praise
and thanks, as so great a benefit required.
When we had ended our business here we weighed, and set sail to run
for the Malucos. But having at that time a bad wind, and being amongst
the islands, with much difficulty we recovered to the northward of the
island of Celebes; where by reason of contrary winds, not able to
continue our course to run westwards, we were enforced to alter the
same to the southward again, finding that course also to be very hard
and dangerous for us, by reason of infinite shoals which lie off and
among the islands; whereof we had too much trial, to the hazard and
danger of our ship and lives. For, of all other days, upon the 9th of
January, in the year 1579 [1580], we ran suddenly upon a rock, where
we stuck fast from eight of the clock at night till four of the clock
in the afternoon the next day, being indeed out of all hope to escape
the danger. But our General, as he had always hitherto shewed himself
courageous, and of a good confidence in the mercy and protection of
God, so now he continued in the same. And lest he should seem to
perish wilfully, both he and we did our best endeavour to save
ourselves; which it pleased God so to bless, that in the end we
cleared ourselves most happily of the danger.
We lighted our ship upon the rocks of three tons of cloves, eight
pieces of ordnance, and certain meal and beans; and then the wind, as
it were in a moment by the special grace of God, changing from the
starboard to the larboard of the ship, we hoisted our sails, and the
happy gale drove our ship off the rock into the sea again, to the no
little comfort of all our hearts, for which we gave God such praise
and thanks, as so great a benefit required.
Thanks Don and Cablava.
The number of cannons dumped when Drake ran aground varies from account to account. John Drake and the official Hakluyt account both say eight, but the hand-written Anonymous Narrative says there were only two. The World Encompassed simply says that "everything as it first came to hand went overboard", arguing that if God saved them from their current peril, he would hardly let them perish later for the "want of bread" and would "fight for us against our enemies". I'm inclined to the larger number of eight, as this number was quoted in two independent accounts, but who knows for sure.
Several people have had a go at identifying the reef, but they were historians rather than sailors with a knowledge of the area, so I would back Cornelius against any of them. Julian Corbett writing in 1911 said it was the Mulapatia Reef, south of Peleng Island. Henry Wagner in the 1920s agreed, but was even more specific, suggesting that it was near Tomori Bay. I haven't looked up the detail of their reasoning, but will do so when I have time. I have read that another reef Vesuvius Reef has been suggested, but I am not sure by whom. The World Encompassed places the reef a couple of minutes north of 2 degrees south, but John Drake says it was further south, in five or six degrees. He (JD) gives an interesting description:
"Among some islands, in five or six degrees, the ship ran aground on a ledge of rock in such a way that from its poop they could not find bottom at a depth of more than three hundred fathoms in which to fasten the anchor and haul off the ship."
Depending on whether they managed to get trapped on the shallow reef, or whether they sank into the deep water immediately adjacent, they might be in six to ten feet of water, or in very deep water, depending on where they dumped them. Although there is no mention of it in any of the accounts, I would have thought that Drake might have tried to rescue the cannons, using the ship's boat, if they had been in fairly shallow water. Having escaped the immediate danger, I imagine his mind went back into strategic mode.
Mariner
The number of cannons dumped when Drake ran aground varies from account to account. John Drake and the official Hakluyt account both say eight, but the hand-written Anonymous Narrative says there were only two. The World Encompassed simply says that "everything as it first came to hand went overboard", arguing that if God saved them from their current peril, he would hardly let them perish later for the "want of bread" and would "fight for us against our enemies". I'm inclined to the larger number of eight, as this number was quoted in two independent accounts, but who knows for sure.
Several people have had a go at identifying the reef, but they were historians rather than sailors with a knowledge of the area, so I would back Cornelius against any of them. Julian Corbett writing in 1911 said it was the Mulapatia Reef, south of Peleng Island. Henry Wagner in the 1920s agreed, but was even more specific, suggesting that it was near Tomori Bay. I haven't looked up the detail of their reasoning, but will do so when I have time. I have read that another reef Vesuvius Reef has been suggested, but I am not sure by whom. The World Encompassed places the reef a couple of minutes north of 2 degrees south, but John Drake says it was further south, in five or six degrees. He (JD) gives an interesting description:
"Among some islands, in five or six degrees, the ship ran aground on a ledge of rock in such a way that from its poop they could not find bottom at a depth of more than three hundred fathoms in which to fasten the anchor and haul off the ship."
Depending on whether they managed to get trapped on the shallow reef, or whether they sank into the deep water immediately adjacent, they might be in six to ten feet of water, or in very deep water, depending on where they dumped them. Although there is no mention of it in any of the accounts, I would have thought that Drake might have tried to rescue the cannons, using the ship's boat, if they had been in fairly shallow water. Having escaped the immediate danger, I imagine his mind went back into strategic mode.
Mariner
So what have we got from the info so far.
13th October she arrived at some islands 8?N coming from the US She took on food and water etc.
18th October she left passing Tagulanda, Zelon and Zewerra
14th November They arrived at the Muluco coasting along the island of Mutyr (governed by Ternate)
After a period of time in Ternate, she left and sailed southward of the Celebes where they stopped at an island and graved the ship for 26 days.
They left the island and sailed for the Mulucos with a bad wind amongst the islands. Having recovered Northward of the Celebes contrary winds stopped their Westward course, they came onto a Southward course and on
9th Jan struck the reef
10th Jan they ran free and sailed
8th Feb arrives at the island of Barateve
29day sailing
Some assumptions
The ship sailed at about 3 to4 Knots at best so, They could not sail close to the wind so she must have had a Southern quarter wind to take them north of the Celebes, where she found Contrary winds and drove them southward again. It does not state how long they sailed in anything I have read.
But if you take the four possible routes on my map.
Red route positions the ship 2?S
Blue route positions the ship 5to 6?S
Purple route positions the ship 3 to 4?S
But it is possible they struck on the
Orange route positions the ship about 5 to 6?N
Now that is a big area
13th October she arrived at some islands 8?N coming from the US She took on food and water etc.
18th October she left passing Tagulanda, Zelon and Zewerra
14th November They arrived at the Muluco coasting along the island of Mutyr (governed by Ternate)
After a period of time in Ternate, she left and sailed southward of the Celebes where they stopped at an island and graved the ship for 26 days.
They left the island and sailed for the Mulucos with a bad wind amongst the islands. Having recovered Northward of the Celebes contrary winds stopped their Westward course, they came onto a Southward course and on
9th Jan struck the reef
10th Jan they ran free and sailed
8th Feb arrives at the island of Barateve
29day sailing Some assumptions
The ship sailed at about 3 to4 Knots at best so, They could not sail close to the wind so she must have had a Southern quarter wind to take them north of the Celebes, where she found Contrary winds and drove them southward again. It does not state how long they sailed in anything I have read.
But if you take the four possible routes on my map.
Red route positions the ship 2?S
Blue route positions the ship 5to 6?S
Purple route positions the ship 3 to 4?S
But it is possible they struck on the
Orange route positions the ship about 5 to 6?N
Now that is a big area
Attachments
Cornelius et al,
I do not think it will help much, but here is the only contemporary depiction of the Golden Hind stuck on the reef. You might already be familiar with it. It is an inset on the Hondius Broadside map of about 1589, a world map showing the tracks of Drake and Cavendish. There is an inset picture in each corner, and reason to believe that Hondius copied them from original sketches by somebody on the voyage, probably John Drake. One of the accounts talks about Drake going into the ship's boat to explore ways of getting the GH off the reef, and so this sketch was probably originally drawn by John Drake in the ship's boat with his cousin Francis.
Having said that, it does not seem to offer any clues that will help us identify the reef, except that there does not seem to be any land in the immediate area behind the ship, but I guess the significance of that depends on which side of the wreck the picture was drawn from. In any case, Drake was unlikely to be sailing very close to the coast in an area with which he was not familiar. Is it dark in that area at 8 pm in January?
Mariner
I do not think it will help much, but here is the only contemporary depiction of the Golden Hind stuck on the reef. You might already be familiar with it. It is an inset on the Hondius Broadside map of about 1589, a world map showing the tracks of Drake and Cavendish. There is an inset picture in each corner, and reason to believe that Hondius copied them from original sketches by somebody on the voyage, probably John Drake. One of the accounts talks about Drake going into the ship's boat to explore ways of getting the GH off the reef, and so this sketch was probably originally drawn by John Drake in the ship's boat with his cousin Francis.
Having said that, it does not seem to offer any clues that will help us identify the reef, except that there does not seem to be any land in the immediate area behind the ship, but I guess the significance of that depends on which side of the wreck the picture was drawn from. In any case, Drake was unlikely to be sailing very close to the coast in an area with which he was not familiar. Is it dark in that area at 8 pm in January?
Mariner
Attachments
This might help to narrow the location of the island where they graved the ship. Interesting comment in the text, "to a certain little island to the southward of the Celebes". It might indicate he knew the name of the island but masked it for other reasons!
After that our gentlemen were returned, and that we had here by the
favour of the king received all necessary things that the place could
yield us; our General considering the great distance, and how far he
was yet off from his country, thought it not best here to linger the
time any longer, but weighing his anchors, set out of the island, and
sailed to a certain little island to the southwards of Celebes, where
we graved our ship, and continued there, in that and other businesses,
26 days. This island is thoroughly grown with wood of a large and high
growth, very straight, and without boughs, save only in the head or
top, whose leaves are not much differing from our broom in England.
Amongst these trees night by night, through the whole land, did shew
themselves an infinite swarm of fiery worms flying in the air, whose
bodies being no bigger than our common English flies, make such a show
and light as if every twig or tree had been a burning candle. In this
place breedeth also wonderful store of bats, as big as large hens. Of
crayfishes also here wanted no plenty, and they of exceeding bigness,
one whereof was sufficient for four hungry stomachs at a dinner, being
also very good and restoring meat, whereof we had experience: and they
dig themselves holes in the earth like coneys.
After that our gentlemen were returned, and that we had here by the
favour of the king received all necessary things that the place could
yield us; our General considering the great distance, and how far he
was yet off from his country, thought it not best here to linger the
time any longer, but weighing his anchors, set out of the island, and
sailed to a certain little island to the southwards of Celebes, where
we graved our ship, and continued there, in that and other businesses,
26 days. This island is thoroughly grown with wood of a large and high
growth, very straight, and without boughs, save only in the head or
top, whose leaves are not much differing from our broom in England.
Amongst these trees night by night, through the whole land, did shew
themselves an infinite swarm of fiery worms flying in the air, whose
bodies being no bigger than our common English flies, make such a show
and light as if every twig or tree had been a burning candle. In this
place breedeth also wonderful store of bats, as big as large hens. Of
crayfishes also here wanted no plenty, and they of exceeding bigness,
one whereof was sufficient for four hungry stomachs at a dinner, being
also very good and restoring meat, whereof we had experience: and they
dig themselves holes in the earth like coneys.
Gents:
Here's another take on the situation.
In Giles Milton's book, 'Nathaniel's Nutmeg' (page 32), the author states:
"By the time Drake was ready to leave Ternate, his ship was so weighed down with goods--and so low in the water--that she was 'laid up fast upon a desperate shoal'. To lighten her, eight of the cannon were cast into the water, followed by much of the meal and 'pulse' (edible seeds, like beans, peas, lentils, etc.) and finally three tons of the precious cloves that he had bought."
Does this suggest that the shoal was right off Ternate?
Don....
Here's another take on the situation.
In Giles Milton's book, 'Nathaniel's Nutmeg' (page 32), the author states:
"By the time Drake was ready to leave Ternate, his ship was so weighed down with goods--and so low in the water--that she was 'laid up fast upon a desperate shoal'. To lighten her, eight of the cannon were cast into the water, followed by much of the meal and 'pulse' (edible seeds, like beans, peas, lentils, etc.) and finally three tons of the precious cloves that he had bought."
Does this suggest that the shoal was right off Ternate?
Don....
Cornelius, Cablava,
Of course the problem is knowing which account to use for the reconstruction, as they vary and are contradictory about some details. What is apparent from all of them is that the journey from Ternate to the point where they ran aground was anything but straightforward.
There are only five real sources of information: (1) The World Encompassed, not published until almost fifty years after the voyage and supposedly based on the notes of Francis Fletcher, Drake's preacher. (2) The "official" Hakluyt account first published about 1589, which was a composite of three main sources, with Fletcher's notes the likely source of that portion after leaving Mexico, (3 and 4) the two depositions made by Drake's cousin John after being captured by the Spanish a couple of years after the circumnavigation) and (5) the hand-written Anonymous Narrative account.
The conclusion that Drake ran aground on the Mulapatia reef, as earlier made by Corbet and Wagner and now suggested as a possibility by Cornelius, is consistent with the narrative and latitudes contained in the World Encompassed account, though the details are insufficient to draw a definite conclusion.
The Hakluyt account (not written by Francis Pretty, by the way, Cablava) does not contain sufficient detail to draw a conclusion.
Neither does the Anonymous Narrative, which was compiled by Hakluyt's assistant, Philip Jones, from the testimony of eight senior members of Drake's crew. It says that "shortly after they were departed hence (Ternate) they saw a small island covered with wood, whereof they throughly furnished their ship" This was the so-called island of crabs, and it then says that after leaving it "... keeping his course westerly till the eighth of January at night, the ran suddenly on a rock ..."
John Drake's first deposition provides information and latitudes that do not correspond with the WE, and text that gives some idea about the vagaries of Drake's movements after leaving Ternate. It says: "From thence (Ternate) they went to an island situated in four degrees north." This was the Island of Crabs, which the WE placed in almost two degrees south. Later, it says "after leaving the Island of Crabs, where they had left the negress and the negroes and which is situated in four degrees, they were driven by the wind out of their course, first in one direction and then in another for a whole month. One night they were caught by a very good south wind. Among some islands,in five or six degrees, the ship ran aground on a ledge of rock in such a way that from its poop they could not find bottom at a depth of more than three hundred fathoms ...." It also says that "from they went to an island named Java, which is in eight degrees"
This account would place the running aground much further south, around the southern tip of Celebes, and the latitude quoted for Java suggests that his information was reasonably accurate. The comment about moving in different directions for a month also shows how difficult it is to make assumptions about the path and progress of the Golden Hind during this phase of the voyage.
John Drake's second declaration is not as specific about latitudes, and contains somewhat different information about the movements: "After leaving Terrenate they sailed among many islands to one they named "of crabs" .... and sailing from there among many islands and shoals, their ship ran aground and remained thus for twenty hours. They lightened her of all that was not silver and she afterwards got afloat."
I do not think this second statement adds a great deal, and if anything the description would seem to me more reminiscent of the islands and shoals south of Peleng, although there are groups of island just south west and south of Celebes, in the latitude quoted in John Drake's first deposition.
Cornelius, that old chart you received was a wonderful gift, and must be a pleasure to have and to examine. I have no detailed maps of the area we are talking about in my collection, and I wonder if you have a chart that shows the Mulapatia Reef, and the depths of water on and immediately round it. I suspect that this was where Drake ran aground, though it would only be by finding the cannons that the case would be proved, I think.
This is an interesting problem, and if it was easy to solve, somebody would have done so a long time ago.
Mariner
Of course the problem is knowing which account to use for the reconstruction, as they vary and are contradictory about some details. What is apparent from all of them is that the journey from Ternate to the point where they ran aground was anything but straightforward.
There are only five real sources of information: (1) The World Encompassed, not published until almost fifty years after the voyage and supposedly based on the notes of Francis Fletcher, Drake's preacher. (2) The "official" Hakluyt account first published about 1589, which was a composite of three main sources, with Fletcher's notes the likely source of that portion after leaving Mexico, (3 and 4) the two depositions made by Drake's cousin John after being captured by the Spanish a couple of years after the circumnavigation) and (5) the hand-written Anonymous Narrative account.
The conclusion that Drake ran aground on the Mulapatia reef, as earlier made by Corbet and Wagner and now suggested as a possibility by Cornelius, is consistent with the narrative and latitudes contained in the World Encompassed account, though the details are insufficient to draw a definite conclusion.
The Hakluyt account (not written by Francis Pretty, by the way, Cablava) does not contain sufficient detail to draw a conclusion.
Neither does the Anonymous Narrative, which was compiled by Hakluyt's assistant, Philip Jones, from the testimony of eight senior members of Drake's crew. It says that "shortly after they were departed hence (Ternate) they saw a small island covered with wood, whereof they throughly furnished their ship" This was the so-called island of crabs, and it then says that after leaving it "... keeping his course westerly till the eighth of January at night, the ran suddenly on a rock ..."
John Drake's first deposition provides information and latitudes that do not correspond with the WE, and text that gives some idea about the vagaries of Drake's movements after leaving Ternate. It says: "From thence (Ternate) they went to an island situated in four degrees north." This was the Island of Crabs, which the WE placed in almost two degrees south. Later, it says "after leaving the Island of Crabs, where they had left the negress and the negroes and which is situated in four degrees, they were driven by the wind out of their course, first in one direction and then in another for a whole month. One night they were caught by a very good south wind. Among some islands,in five or six degrees, the ship ran aground on a ledge of rock in such a way that from its poop they could not find bottom at a depth of more than three hundred fathoms ...." It also says that "from they went to an island named Java, which is in eight degrees"
This account would place the running aground much further south, around the southern tip of Celebes, and the latitude quoted for Java suggests that his information was reasonably accurate. The comment about moving in different directions for a month also shows how difficult it is to make assumptions about the path and progress of the Golden Hind during this phase of the voyage.
John Drake's second declaration is not as specific about latitudes, and contains somewhat different information about the movements: "After leaving Terrenate they sailed among many islands to one they named "of crabs" .... and sailing from there among many islands and shoals, their ship ran aground and remained thus for twenty hours. They lightened her of all that was not silver and she afterwards got afloat."
I do not think this second statement adds a great deal, and if anything the description would seem to me more reminiscent of the islands and shoals south of Peleng, although there are groups of island just south west and south of Celebes, in the latitude quoted in John Drake's first deposition.
Cornelius, that old chart you received was a wonderful gift, and must be a pleasure to have and to examine. I have no detailed maps of the area we are talking about in my collection, and I wonder if you have a chart that shows the Mulapatia Reef, and the depths of water on and immediately round it. I suspect that this was where Drake ran aground, though it would only be by finding the cannons that the case would be proved, I think.
This is an interesting problem, and if it was easy to solve, somebody would have done so a long time ago.
Mariner
Mariner
Great input, as you say there is not enough info to pinpoint and lots of contadictions.
As for the accout I posted, this is the detail of the title in the narrative I have. I assume he was onboard but have never cross checked with anything.
SIR FRANCIS DRAKE'S FAMOUS VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD
NARRATIVE BY FRANCIS PRETTY,
ONE OF DRAKE'S GENTLEMEN AT ARMS.
This text was prepared from a 1910 edition, published by P F
Collier & Son Company, New York.
Great input, as you say there is not enough info to pinpoint and lots of contadictions.
As for the accout I posted, this is the detail of the title in the narrative I have. I assume he was onboard but have never cross checked with anything.
SIR FRANCIS DRAKE'S FAMOUS VOYAGE ROUND THE WORLD
NARRATIVE BY FRANCIS PRETTY,
ONE OF DRAKE'S GENTLEMEN AT ARMS.
This text was prepared from a 1910 edition, published by P F
Collier & Son Company, New York.
Just for your records if you do not have this already
Drake?s Circumnavigation
Date Location Notes
15/11/1577 Plymouth
16/11/1577 Falmouth Storm damages ships
13/12/1577 Plymouth
25/12/1577 Cape Cantin Close to Safi in Morocco (32 degrees N 9 degrees 9? W)
27/12/1577 Mogador Essaouira Mogador? A fishing village south of Safi
17/01/1578 Cape Blanco 21 degrees N
27/01/1578 Mayo Cape Verde Islands 1405?N
31/01/1578 Santiago St Tiago Cape Verde Islands
Ilha do Fogo Ilha Brava Cape Verde Islands
05/04/1578 Coast of Brazil 33 degrees S close to the Rio Grande
07/04/1578
14/04/1578 Cape St Mary C Santa Maria 34 degrees S
18/04/1578 Cape of Joy
River Plate 36 degrees S
27/04/1578 River Plate Drake sails from the River Plate
18/05/1578
19/06/1578 Cape of Good Hope
20/06/1578 Port St Julian 49 degrees S East coast of Argentina
17/08/1578 Port St Julian Drake sails from Port St Julian
20/08/1578 Approach the Strait of Magellan
21/08/1578 Strait of Magellan 52 degrees 5? S between mainland Chile and Tierra del Fuego
24/08/1578 Island in the Strait
06/09/1578 South Sea South Pacific
15/09/1578 Bay of Severing Friends Storm drove Drake?s ships to islands 57 degrees S
03/10/1578 Three islands
29/11/1578 Island of La Mocha 380S
Valparaiso
Coquimbo
Tarapaca Region of Chile.
Arica 18 degrees S
13/02/1579 Lima
Cape de San Francisco Possibly 750km south of Panama
Guatulco A small port on the South coast of Mexico
Canno Island Perhaps Cano Island in Costa Rica
16/4 ? 3/6/1589 Sailing in the Pacific Ocean
05/06/1579 43 degrees N
Nova Albion 38 degrees N
June ? 18th Oct At sea
18/10/1579 Caroline Islands East of the Philippines
Mindanao Philippines
Tagulanda, Zelon, Zewarra Possibly in the Celebes
14th November Maluco Moluccas or Spice Islands, Indoneasia
December 1579 Celebes
09/01/1580 hit a rock and stranded south of Celebes
15/01/1580 Ternate 00 48?N 12 70E Moluccas
08/02/1580 Barateve Batjan Moluccas 0048?S 1270E
Java Major Java
18/06/1580 Cape of Good Hope South Africa
22/07/1580 Sierra Leona Sierra Leone
03/11/1580 England
I do not know where I got this sheet but it shows them back in Ternate 5 days after she struck the rock.
Drake?s Circumnavigation
Date Location Notes
15/11/1577 Plymouth
16/11/1577 Falmouth Storm damages ships
13/12/1577 Plymouth
25/12/1577 Cape Cantin Close to Safi in Morocco (32 degrees N 9 degrees 9? W)
27/12/1577 Mogador Essaouira Mogador? A fishing village south of Safi
17/01/1578 Cape Blanco 21 degrees N
27/01/1578 Mayo Cape Verde Islands 1405?N
31/01/1578 Santiago St Tiago Cape Verde Islands
Ilha do Fogo Ilha Brava Cape Verde Islands
05/04/1578 Coast of Brazil 33 degrees S close to the Rio Grande
07/04/1578
14/04/1578 Cape St Mary C Santa Maria 34 degrees S
18/04/1578 Cape of Joy
River Plate 36 degrees S
27/04/1578 River Plate Drake sails from the River Plate
18/05/1578
19/06/1578 Cape of Good Hope
20/06/1578 Port St Julian 49 degrees S East coast of Argentina
17/08/1578 Port St Julian Drake sails from Port St Julian
20/08/1578 Approach the Strait of Magellan
21/08/1578 Strait of Magellan 52 degrees 5? S between mainland Chile and Tierra del Fuego
24/08/1578 Island in the Strait
06/09/1578 South Sea South Pacific
15/09/1578 Bay of Severing Friends Storm drove Drake?s ships to islands 57 degrees S
03/10/1578 Three islands
29/11/1578 Island of La Mocha 380S
Valparaiso
Coquimbo
Tarapaca Region of Chile.
Arica 18 degrees S
13/02/1579 Lima
Cape de San Francisco Possibly 750km south of Panama
Guatulco A small port on the South coast of Mexico
Canno Island Perhaps Cano Island in Costa Rica
16/4 ? 3/6/1589 Sailing in the Pacific Ocean
05/06/1579 43 degrees N
Nova Albion 38 degrees N
June ? 18th Oct At sea
18/10/1579 Caroline Islands East of the Philippines
Mindanao Philippines
Tagulanda, Zelon, Zewarra Possibly in the Celebes
14th November Maluco Moluccas or Spice Islands, Indoneasia
December 1579 Celebes
09/01/1580 hit a rock and stranded south of Celebes
15/01/1580 Ternate 00 48?N 12 70E Moluccas
08/02/1580 Barateve Batjan Moluccas 0048?S 1270E
Java Major Java
18/06/1580 Cape of Good Hope South Africa
22/07/1580 Sierra Leona Sierra Leone
03/11/1580 England
I do not know where I got this sheet but it shows them back in Ternate 5 days after she struck the rock.
Cablava,
The account you published was a reproduction of the one that appeared in Richard Hakluyt's "Principall Navigations, voyages and discoveries of the English Nation ..." a massive work published in 1589 and again in 1600. Hakluyt worked for Lord Walsingham, Queen Elizabeth's Secretary of State, who was also responsible for foreign relations, so his books were effectively the "official" accounts of English voyages. It is easy to show that some of these were deliberately falsified when it came to matters that were particularly "sensitive", and there are some subtle but telling differences between the two Hakluyt accounts of Drake's voyage, for example. Some accounts of voyages are attributed to individuals. For example, the 1600 version of Thomas Cavendish's circumnavigation WAS written by Francis Pretty, "a gentleman employed in the same action", although the 1589 version had not been. For a while, it was thought that Pretty might also have written the Drake account, but it is easy to show that it was not the case. The account is a composite of other known accounts, and was probably compiled by Hakluyt himself, or his assistant Reverend Philip Jones.
Sorry if this is a bit boring for some of the forum members, but I thought you might appreciate the detail, Cablava.
Mariner
The account you published was a reproduction of the one that appeared in Richard Hakluyt's "Principall Navigations, voyages and discoveries of the English Nation ..." a massive work published in 1589 and again in 1600. Hakluyt worked for Lord Walsingham, Queen Elizabeth's Secretary of State, who was also responsible for foreign relations, so his books were effectively the "official" accounts of English voyages. It is easy to show that some of these were deliberately falsified when it came to matters that were particularly "sensitive", and there are some subtle but telling differences between the two Hakluyt accounts of Drake's voyage, for example. Some accounts of voyages are attributed to individuals. For example, the 1600 version of Thomas Cavendish's circumnavigation WAS written by Francis Pretty, "a gentleman employed in the same action", although the 1589 version had not been. For a while, it was thought that Pretty might also have written the Drake account, but it is easy to show that it was not the case. The account is a composite of other known accounts, and was probably compiled by Hakluyt himself, or his assistant Reverend Philip Jones.
Sorry if this is a bit boring for some of the forum members, but I thought you might appreciate the detail, Cablava.
Mariner
Mariner
Its the details that matter, the smaller the detail sometimes make the most different.
I have 13 narratives by Richard Halkluyt amounting to nearly 400 pages, two documents are on Asia but non of mine mention this particular voyage, do you have any idea as to how many narratives he wrote?
Regards
Mike
Its the details that matter, the smaller the detail sometimes make the most different.
I have 13 narratives by Richard Halkluyt amounting to nearly 400 pages, two documents are on Asia but non of mine mention this particular voyage, do you have any idea as to how many narratives he wrote?
Regards
Mike
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