Ivory and wood hinged box? carving inside... help..what is it?

[lala2013]

ANy thoughts? It looks like a wooden box/book with a carving on the inside. wedding scene? catholic?
thanks!

 

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[Mekong Mike]

looks like two people getting married in a church. Very beautiful. Are you able to remove the ivory carving ? There might be some additional clues underneath.

 

[Mekong Mike]

The picture on the box shows a man posed on top of a lion. This could be his death. In europe knights who were killed in battle were buried with carvings of dogs and lions etc.

 

[capt-zero]

A quick test would be to take a close look with a loupe and see if you can see pores in the material. This would be a sign of bone rather than ivory. You would have to look carefully at the entire piece. It is probably ivory. My first guess would be early 19th century or late 18th century French, but an expert should be consulted for that determination. It indeed appears to be a Catholic rendition of the marriage of a King(?). Close up details of the hinge and bottom of the box would be helpful. I would also appreciate a closeup of the figure on the frontis piece. Absolutely gorgeous piece. I'm green with envy.

 

[capt-zero]

My apologies Mekong Mike, but do not under any circumstances try to remove the carving yourself. Antique ivory can be very brittle and ivory NEVER repairs invisibly. Any invasive proceedure to a piece such as this, should be done only by an expert and thought out very carefully beforehand. This has the potential to be a very important work and should be treated with due care until that is determined. I have an antique ivory snuffbox that is largely worthless now because I took such advice.

 

[damiani1]

You can test if something's real ivory by, heating a needle (hold over candle for a while) and poking and holding it causing it to burn a little in one spot. If it smells like your getting a filling at the dentist your in luck and it is indeed ivory.

 

[capt-zero]

Wives tale, bone reacts the same way as does ivory. This site is the best info site I've found for ivory identification. Identifying Real from Fake As I mentioned earlier, this piece has the potential of being a very important work of art. Invasive testing should never be done on a piece like that until it's identity is determined. Perhaps if someone suggested a hot pin test on an original Picasso?

 

[unclemac]

bone or ivory...as long as it is not a cast plastic piece, it is very nice....and yes, i would hot pin it too....the "damage" if done right would be unobservable. but that is only if you want to sus it out yourself. otherwise, find someone who restores old objet d'art and give them a crack at it.

 

[DCMatt]

My first impression is that it is not that old. I'm thinking mid 20th C. The metalwork on the top and the hinges look machine cut. We need better, close up pictures to make a better determination.

DCMatt

 

[unclemac]

...and the wood too looks kinda wrong, but all the same it could be some sort of churchie type piece....

 

[cw0909]

lala2013,i enlarged the hinges from your img

 

[gunsil]

You can test if something's real ivory by, heating a needle (hold over candle for a while) and poking and holding it causing it to burn a little in one spot. If it smells like your getting a filling at the dentist your in luck and it is indeed ivory.

The hot pin test is only to discern whether the object is plastic or celluloid. Capt-zero is correct in that bone and ivory react the same to a hot pin. Neither will smell at all with a hot pin. If an object is plastic or celluloid the pin will sink into the object and it will not sink in at all if ivory or bone. The pin must be re-hot or the test will be invalid. The item in question doesn't look like ivory to me. If examined under a magnifying glass there should be evident grain if the item is elephant ivory. Bone, as capt-zero said will show small pores.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

beautiful object...

I suspect this is some presentation piece...king an queen marriage? the squire/knight? on the inside of the lid might suggest the person presented with the piece.

I do agree it does not seem too old...who was the last king crowned or married in a gothic church?

examine those hinge with a magnifier...they appear to be hand made...?

 

[capt-zero]

Looking at the close ups of the hinges, they were definitely hand etched. I can"t tell for sure without measuring, but the metal on the two different hinges does not look exactly the same on both hinges. In short, they appear to be hand wrought. I will defer to any metal workers out there, though. In addition, only ivory and bone will stand up to detailed carving. Much like cut glass, ivory cuts will be sharp edged and even. Plastic/resin will always leave molding artifacts, either mould marks or a bubble here and there. To a certain extent, so will celluloid. As far as the wood is concerned, woodworking is my big hobby. I am frequently called upon to restore antique woodwork for friends, family and clients. That wood looks to me to be 200+ years old, or I could make a fortune with their recipe for the finish. The finish has all the look and patina of old homemade varnish.

 

[bradyboy]

is it me or does the hinge look like a modern door hinge construction
three screw / rivets , the center hole being off set like modern day hindges
Just a thought
BradyBoy

 

[cw0909]

lala2013,i dont know how old your piece is,maybe these links can help you
very nice find

The Gothic Ivories Project website makes available the first 700 objects from a database that already numbers more than 3,000 ivories. A detailed entry has been written for each piece and the vast majority are illustrated by high resolution colour images, with multiple views. The final number of objects looks set to triple Koechlin’s figure.
We are equally interested in including objects in private collections, so as to be as comprehensive as possible. The website will be accessible to all and is designed to welcome collectors and curators as well as students and scholars. As so many Gothic ivories were divided up for sale in the nineteenth century, there is a very real chance of being able to identify what have been thought to be missing parts of a whole. The website makes possible searches by many aspects of content, provenance, function and so on.”
?Koechlin for the twenty-first century? @ The Courtauld Institute of Art - Eloge de l'Art par Alain Truong

Gothic Ivories Project | Sets

 

[justdugcrazy]

You can test if something's real ivory by, heating a needle (hold over candle for a while) and poking and holding it causing it to burn a little in one spot. If it smells like your getting a filling at the dentist your in luck and it is indeed ivory.

THAT WOULD BE A GREAT TEST ON ANOTHER OBJECT BUT I TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH YOUR ADVICE I WOULD TAKE IT TO AN EXPERT BEFORE POKING IT WITH A HOT NEEDLE THIS OBJECT LOOKS LIKE IT COULD BE WORTH A GOOD BIT AND HISTORICALLY SIGNIFICANT.POKING IT WITH A HOT NEEDLE JUST DOESNT SEEM LIKE THE WAY GO.MAYBE FOR THE RANDOM PIPE THATS FOUND OR A CARVED PIECE OF WHATEVER,BUT IN THIS CASE CONSULTING AN EXPERT IS WHERE YOU BEGIN NO NEED TO SAY CANT BELIEVE I BROKE THAT OR DEFACED IT WITH A HOT NEEDLE.

 

[capt-zero]

cw0909,
Thanks for that link. Definitely going in my reference file.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

burning ivory to make sure it is real, is similar to scratching glass with a diamond to test it...why ruin an object to see what it is made of?
this piece is fantastic in detail and construction....
leave it be...check the links o0o9 posted...

 

[BosnMate]

I can only see one edge, and the wood doesn't appear to be plywood, just looking at the photos the wood looks to me like it has an oak grain. That and the fact that there are no screws in the hinges makes me think it might be a lot older than it's being given credit for. In America screws were hand made one a time well into the 1800's, by 1840 the turret lathe was invented, but a screw making machine derived from that didn't appear until 1870. If that comes from Europe, and I suspect it does, they had screws earlier, but still, the fact that the hinges are either riveted or nailed on makes me think older also. Also the hinges look to be rococo to me, which doesn't mean much, but here is the definition of Rococo.

Rococo1. a. A style of art, especially architecture and decorative art, that originated in France in the early 18th century and is marked by elaborate ornamentation, as with a profusion of scrolls, foliage, and animal forms.

All that, and the fact that the hinges appear to be hand made, makes me think this possibly dates quite a long time, and perhaps you have a very real treasure.